The defiance of an 'untouchable' New York subway worker

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-40702242

by Thevet • 8 years ago

80 85 8 years ago

LarryL2• 8 years ago

My parents visited India a few years ago, they faced that issue when their guide refused to enter a coffee shop, when he explained that it was because he was not allowed to enter because of his caste, they turned back (disgusted)...

tacomonstrous3• 8 years ago

One of the main benefits in India of increasing urbanization is the accompanying anonymity. I would assume this incident didn't occur in a big city. Did it?

voltooid5• 8 years ago

People that do want to hate others, will find reasons to hate.

noobhacker• 8 years ago

According to the author of the book being discussed, the caste system is very much alive in cities [1]. From what she said, it seems like people can tell your caste by asking a few simple questions or observing your body language. The caste system persists even among Indians in America.

[1] https://medium.com/conversations-with-tyler/sujatha-gidla-an...

LarryL2• 8 years ago

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe that it was in a big city. At least, I'm sure it was not in a small town/village in the country.

INvidiA5• 8 years ago

These sort of class distinctions are much less pronounced in America, which is why so many oppressed or impoverished people from elsewhere yearn to travel here and make a new life. It's nice to hear about someone who was able to realize the American Dream and escape the class prejudice of their home country.

goutham2688• 8 years ago

https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/when-caste-follows-you...

Indians who are deemed lower caste are converting to Christianity to escape the tag.

cscurmudgeon2• 8 years ago

Hilarious since Indian versions of Christianity have caste.

dharmach• 8 years ago

When societies/individuals achieve high status and realize self-worth, they usually develop a generous and liberal disposition (not a bad thing). Unfortunately, when the position is threatened, they may go back to the survival mode and become intolerant.

INvidiA5• 8 years ago

That is very true. Also when societies/individuals don't have a long history they haven't had a chance to accumulate modes of thinking from the past that are no longer deemed appropriate but are difficult to shake off once acquired.

Lambdanaut2• 8 years ago

In Freudian terms: when under threat, people develop a highly anal response. When at peace, they develop an oral response.

retSava• 8 years ago

That might be the case, but the constant reminder of race is very weird to me. As in, it's very common to denote someone to be "black" or "white" or "hispanic" and so on. I can understand this to some extent when it comes to describing how someone looks (eg police warrant) but in most other contexts... it's just feels very strange with the obsession of what color/origin someone has/is.

TheCoelacanth4• 8 years ago

Funny how centuries of race based slavery and discrimination will do that.

quantummkv2• 8 years ago

A better way to allegorize the Indian caste system would be the racism in USA. No one in urban centers or in the new generations is racist against black people. Go to the folks from the older generations and in the hinterlands and you will find that racism still exists somewhat.

A similar trend is present in India. The new kids in urban centers don't care about caste. The old people in the villages and hinterlands? They do somewhat.

And then you always have the politicians on every side of the spectrum who artificially inflate caste and race issues for their own gains.

Blackthorn• 8 years ago

No one in urban centers or in the new generations is racist against black people.

I'm sorry but this is just wrong, and you can prove it to yourself by reading the news any day.

quantummkv2• 8 years ago

Well it looks like mistyped that. I meant the majority of the people. You always have some people with other views.

saiya-jin• 8 years ago

The new kids in urban centers don't care about caste.

Oh yes they do, maybe less than before, but its still present. To native, +-cast membership is usually very obvious.

When you are born into privilege, and you are told whole childhood that you are entitled to it and those less fortunate 'deserved' it by their actions in previous lives, it's hard thing to give it up, and say 'no, I deserve less'.

virtuexru• 8 years ago

No one in urban centers or in the new generations is racist against black people.

Excuse me?

walshemj• 8 years ago

Oh really not that long-ago in the UK we had high caste member of our team say that they could not socialise with us in at particular venue as that would make him unclean.

There is also a lot of evidence of caste discrimination in the UK otherwise why was caste discrimination added to the protected groups in the UK, I know one of the MP's involved

Wildgoose• 8 years ago

I came across this a while back as well, (UK also), somebody I worked with began a relationship with a girl from a higher caste and it caused all sorts of trouble.

abhi3• 8 years ago

You are completely wrong. I have lived my entire life in Delhi and I can tell you that there is rampant caste discrimination in urban India. I can cite many anecdotes but usually the denial of discrimination, which your comment does, is in itself an indicator of bias.

deskamess• 8 years ago

What? Caste and racism are different issues with a common goal (subjugation) and have considerable legs. I would vouch there is a visible resurgence in both. Narrowing to an India-US narrative, caste ideology is constantly imported into the US under the auspices of various Regional Groups. This is visible in the informal societal groups that are formed as well as some official groups that are formed. See the tail end of her interview [1] about Telugu Immigration Groups which are segmented along caste lines (and her request for membership).

I would not mind seeing an AMA from someone in a lower caste in India, someone from a lower caste in US, and someone from an upper caste in the US.

[1] https://scroll.in/video/862235/video-how-do-they-say-there-i...

oflannabhra4• 8 years ago

Why should it be allegorized?

The whole point of the article, and her book, is to bring the caste system and its consequences into light. Allegorizing it would wash away all the specific issues she is trying to raise!

fred_is_fred• 8 years ago

I must admit that simply from the headline I assumed that this was about a person who should have been fired multiple times for gross incompetence but the city could not due to some grievance process gone wrong.

ubermonkey• 8 years ago

RIGHT?

And upon reading it, what a delightful surprise instead!

quantumofmalice• 8 years ago

Unlike most of her lot, her family was "middle class", thanks to the help of Canadian missionaries in her region who aided in education and offered them religion. Her family was thus Christian and benefited with education. Her parents held jobs as college teachers.

Gidla says that proselytization didn't help her lot. "Christians, untouchables - it came to the same thing. All Christians in India were untouchable. I knew no Christian who did not turn servile in the presence of a Hindu."

Proselytization did help her a lot: it was the reason the christians were there in the first place.

mcguire3• 8 years ago

And affirmative action.

oflannabhra4• 8 years ago

Tyler Cowen interviews Sujatha Gidla on his podcast, Conversations with Tyler [0]. Not having heard of her, and not having any exposure to caste societies, I was struck by the sharpness of her insight and the strength of her conviction. I highly recommend listening.

[0] https://medium.com/conversations-with-tyler/sujatha-gidla-an...

astrodust3• 8 years ago

not having any exposure to caste societies...

Never heard of America?

oflannabhra4• 8 years ago

The term "caste" is not used to refer to social stratification. It is more specific [0].

America has its own ethnic-based social stratification issues, but I think that opponents of caste systems would say that comparing modern day America, with its issues, to the entrenched caste system in India is a comparison that greatly waters-down the oppressiveness of caste and minimizes the challenges facing its reform.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste

mcguire3• 8 years ago

The child of "college teachers" and a former "researcher in applied physics" at IIT is now a train conductor with the New York subway?

This is a good thing?

frgtpsswrdlame• 8 years ago

Hm? I don't understand the connection you're drawing to her parentage.

RobertRoberts• 8 years ago

I do believe the reference is to her capacity for intellectual work (teaching vs driving a train) based on the environment her parents would have raised her in. Not genetics.

wmil• 8 years ago

Financially it's smarter than being a post-doc or untenured lecturer.

cscurmudgeon2• 8 years ago

Any data to back that up? Really curious.

sevensor• 8 years ago

She was laid off from a job at a bank, per the article.

jbros3• 8 years ago

Yes. Please ask any of the marginalized persons in the us. About half of ALL transgender youth commit suicide - they would rather die than experience hate.

We also forget that their are people still alive today that experienced racial segregation. Many will gladly tell their story.

oflannabhra4• 8 years ago

To everyone whose response to this is "Oh yeah, that's just like racism and slavery in America." Please consider the following:

Both racism and casteism have similar results. That is, subjugation of certain peoples, violations of human rights, the preservation of the oppressing class, death--a whole host of evils.

However, they have different sources, are codified differently, entrenched in different cultures, and therefore should be addressed and combated differently.

Sujatha did not write a book to make people understand that American slavery (and its continuing echo) is bad. Furthermore, purely trying to understand Sujatha's story through the lens of American slavery is essentially hand-waving away the points she is trying to make.

The defiance of an 'untouchable' New York subway worker

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