Should computer scientists keep the Lena picture?

https://lemire.me/blog/2017/11/10/should-computer-scientists-keep-the-lena-picture/

by ingve • 9 years ago

13 13 9 years ago

Theodores• 9 years ago

Lenna is okay with it.

I was introduced to the Lena image in 1992. My scientist boss gave the reasons for the image being used as to do with the fine details in the feather bit, the spectrum of colours plus skin tone. He was not aware of the provenance of the image.

We also had the baboon and I still use him to this day.

The one I am missing is the Landsat image of the Bay Area.

In 1992 we did not have the www. Or search engines. So there was no way to learn the back story if you just had the image. So we should not judge those that worked with image processing systems and only had a dozen test images to work with.

abhishek0318• 9 years ago

Can someone tell me how this photo is offending to some? Am I missing something?

djur• 9 years ago

It's a cropped version of a nude photograph from a pornographic magazine. Some people consider it unprofessional to use sexualized depictions of people in a technical context where sexuality is not relevant.

deadmetheny• 9 years ago

In my opinion, it seems logical to not use it as a standard image anymore, since it's not particularly professional to use nudes for such things (even if tasteful), but it should also not be swept under the rug due to the historical significance and the fact that Lena herself is not troubled by its usage[1].

[1] http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~chuck/lennapg/lenna.shtml

DonHopkins2• 9 years ago

Does "AI:HUMOR;VICKI BODY" get grandfathered in, too?

NSFW: MS C0LLINS - 0UI - FEBRUARY 1973: http://its.svensson.org/HUMOR%3bVICKI%20BODY

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandfather_clause

mercer• 9 years ago

Is the nipples being marked 'A' and 'B' part of the joke?

DonHopkins2• 9 years ago

As far as I know, those were not the points of the joke.

I noticed them for the first time yesterday too, after not noticing them for decades!

As a teen, I'd printed it out, pinned it up on my wall next to the Cray-1 centerfold, and scribbled a bunch of modem phone numbers, user names and passwords all over it, and never even noticed.

I did a quick search for other A's and B's and found that it used those characters as much as any other character for shading, but that sure seems like something some mischievous student, lab member, turist or sentient TECO script at the MIT-AI Lab might have done.

There was no file security so anyone could have edited them in.

Maybe one of Minsky's grad students was performing some A/B testing or eye tracking experiments.

Somebody should ask RMS if EMACS had some special mode for editing line printer porn.

chrisra• 9 years ago

Absolutely not. It's not like there isn't a million other images that work just fine. It's a symbol (even if most people don't know) of the objectification of women, that is pervasive in a field that struggles enough with treating women fairly.

jhanschoo• 9 years ago

I do agree that a nude pic is unprofessional and that it is sufficient grounds for discontinuation, but I disagree with your characterization of its symbolic meaning.

I think that there is benign and beneficial pleasure to be had in a limited objectification of any sex, in the appropriate contexts; (e.g. in pornography and sexual work, in idol worship, in sexual kink-play, etc., with willing and informed participants). It's just that this is not an appropriate context.

thothamon• 9 years ago

I reluctantly agree that in the context of a classroom discussion, a sexualized (even if SFW) image is not ideal, primarily because it's a distraction from the subject. I also recognize the point that technical disciplines have enough trouble attracting female participants without making the problem worse.

I feel reluctant to admit this because there always lots of people more than ready to be offended by anything, and giving in to their demands encourages them to demand the next thing. The author acknowledges this can go too far, and it is a slippery slope. So I only agree with reluctance, in this one case, that the best thing is to drop the Lena image.

But to me, the author goes too far. Avoiding any "needless" offense would have many people walking on eggshells all the time in an unnecessary effort to appeal to the unreasonable. Life is rough. Unless we are completely boring, sterile people with not a single original or interesting thought, we're bound to offend and be offended. Instead of trying so hard to have everyone like us, I think it would be preferable to expose people to many, sometimes offensive, perspectives, and to have vigorous debates about them.

Giving offense is not a virtue in itself, but stifling ingenious or even interesting thoughts merely to avoid giving offense is a vice. The people among us worth emulating are not those who will go to great lengths to avoid giving offense, but those with a passionate and unique perspective -- people who are willing to offend, if need be, to communicate those thoughts.

krapsna• 9 years ago

People REALLY like high quality pictures of attractive, naked people. What should we use as a reference image to judge how well compression algorithms reproduce an image?

Hmm... how about a SFW version of what the compression algorithm in question is going to be applied to. Over, and over, and over, and over again?

Sounds like the proper choice to me.

syphilis2• 9 years ago

Matthews answers that the Lena image is a part of Computer Science culture. Lemire answers that there is no benefit to using the Lena image above other similar images, but there is damage since it offends some people. Neither argument is convincing. Memes like Lena shouldn't be actively encouraged since that would corrupt their natural propagation: Lena (and its origin) would be forced in front of people rather than discovered, and would be resented for that. Meanwhile "Getting Along" (Lemire's usage) sounds more like kowtowing and is not how CS prospers. CS prospers by being accessible, open, inclusive, and exciting, not by shaming members over moral trends. Resources are abundant, and Lena is not so pervasive as to obstruct participation.

Computer Scientists should use whichever images they personally enjoy, since they're the ones seeing those pictures each day. Anyone else can and should be offended as much as they are at any other poor coding practice.

jdonaldson• 9 years ago

Here's Lena attending the IS&T Conference in Boston in 1997 : http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~chuck/lennapg/lenna_visit.html

It wasn't the scene of a victim confronting her attacker. It wasn't a media event highlighting gender issues. It was just two people finally getting a chance to meet.

Would it be ok if Lena made this into a gender issue talking point? Yes. Is it ok that she didn't do that, and went solely because she wanted to see what the fuss was about? Yes.

Should computer scientists keep the Lena picture?

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