Mike Replies To A Slightly Offended, Not Very Enthusiastic Scout.

http://www.mikeroweworks.com/2010/06/mike-replies-to-a-slightly-offended-not-very-enthusiastic-scout/

by Sukotto • 16 years ago

121 76 16 years ago

Sukotto• 16 years ago

  If your strategy in Scouts (and Life) is to avoid those
  activities and requirements that you don’t enjoy, you will 
  have a difficult time transcending any definition of 
  mediocrity. That’s not a criticism -- merely an observation.

hugh34• 16 years ago

What if your strategy in life is to pursue whatever arbitrary goal is placed in front of you by some authority figure despite the complete lack of tangible rewards for doing so?

This sounds less like a recipe for producing a successful and resourceful man of the world and more like a recipe for a guy who spends his spare time trying to get all the achievements on Grand Theft Auto 4.

chromatic• 16 years ago

That sounds like a false dilemma.

JoeAltmaier12• 16 years ago

The goals of BSA are many and varied; boys don't persue arbitrary goals at all.

And Eagle Scout is awarded to recognize those that go above and beyond; the Scout must perform an important service to the community that is important to him. He gets to choose.

moultano• 16 years ago

The things you learn and the skills you demonstrate to become an Eagle scout are _Not_ arbitrary. To earn it you have to demonstrate that you can lead a group of people to do something useful, contribute meaningfully to your community, know basic first aid, and have some skill in the outdoors. The tangible awards for this are the skills and experience themselves.

samdk• 16 years ago

I'd argue that if you don't focus your efforts on the things that really matter to you you're going to have a tough time transcending mediocrity for entirely different reasons.

If you avoid all activities and requirements that you don't enjoy then yes, you're going to have a very hard time becoming good at anything. But if you take on every challenge that you can just because it's there, you're going to fail at most of them and have a much harder time with those you really do care about.

dagw• 16 years ago

I've been involved in boy scouts from when I could join cub scouts until I turned 20. I really enjoyed it and got a lot out of it, but never made any attempt to get Eagle. For me that simply wasn't what scouting was about. Sure when I was young getting badges and awards was cool and all, but from about 16 or 17 I lost all interest in that. From then on, for me, scouts was about teaching younger kids cool things I knew and outdoor activities. That was what I enjoyed and that that's what I dedicated my time to, and as a result I never, officially, got beyond Star. Was I Doing It Wrong, perhaps according to the official measurements. But I fail to see how I or my troop would have been better off by me grinding merit badges instead of teaching kids how to climb.

JoeAltmaier12• 16 years ago

No, you were doing it very, very right. Scouts has room for all kinds - Camping Scouts, Fellowship Scouts, OA Scouts, Merit Badge Scouts, Leadership Scouts. Eagle is just one path. And btw National Standard is to get every Scout to 1st Class.

Oxryly• 16 years ago

Excellent observation. I'd go a step further and say you'll wind up avoiding your own self in the process -- which in turn will make you miserable.

The Boy Scouts certainly helped me face my self directly, almost always against my preferences. Now if they (and I) had done a better job at prioritizing my time and dealing with my "atheism" I'd have made Eagle. Of course I would have felt guilty supporting an organization that essentially required a certain form of religious belief and also discriminated against gays.

Their message and practice is flawed but still contains quite a bit of wisdom.

JoeAltmaier12• 16 years ago

Eagle Scout does not manufacture a committed, resourceful individual; it recognizes one.

whyenot2• 16 years ago

As long as you aren't gay, atheist or agnostic. If you are, the BSA doesn't want anything to do with you.

fr0man• 16 years ago

You can be a youth member and be gay as long as you're willing to live as a second class citizen, i.e. not avow that you're homosexual or hold a youth leadership position. They don't specifically bar homosexuals:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_membershi...

Because, you know, nothing is better for our youth than making them deny who they are and teaching them they aren't worthy of being in a leadership position because of their sexual orientation or religious beliefs.

JoeAltmaier12• 16 years ago

My Troop has all three. Its kind of like "don't ask; don't tell".

And its really the leaders that are scrutinized. BSA is a heterosexual mens' club. There are every other kind of club; why not this one?

SwellJoe3• 16 years ago

It makes me really sad that the BSA has chosen their current highly politicized position.

When I was a scout nearly twenty years ago (holy crap, that's weird to say; getting old is funny), I was already agnostic, leaning atheist, and my troop had a quietly but openly gay member, and our scout leaders knew it. The only time religion ever came up was during summer camp at Camp Old Indian in the mountains in South Carolina...there was a non-denominational meeting on Sunday morning in an old chapel. Attendance was encouraged but optional.

I don't know if my troop was just a really open-minded one (in small town South Carolina, that seems really unlikely!), or the policies of the BSA have changed dramatically. I do know that a friend's little brother joined the same troop several years later but with different leadership and did not find it enjoyable and quit within a couple of months. The troop had moved its meetings out of the old train car it used when I was a scout, and into a Southern Baptist church, and apparently the mood of the troop changed with that move.

It's depressing because I'd always assumed that when I had kids, they'd have the same scouting experience I had, and that I'd participate as a volunteer scout leader. It was a wonderful experience for me, and I wish all boys could have those kinds of male role models in their lives, as well as that kind of camaraderie with other boys. But, given the way the organization seems to have changed into a tool for promoting a hate-filled agenda, I guess it's just not going to happen. Even if my kid did happen to be the "right kind" of kid for the BSA, I wouldn't want him being exposed to that kind of backward thinking and I can't support an organization with that kind of agenda.

mkramlich6• 16 years ago

But if you're gay you can still become a Catholic priest. You might have to cover up being agnostic. But you'll definitely get to work with young boys and help "educate" them.

caryme4• 16 years ago

I can't say my entire scouting experience was wonderful, but I loved the time I spent backpacking with my troop.

We hiked regularly in the Ocala National Forrest in Florida and took trips in the summer to North Carolina, the Southwest Canyons, and Philmont.

Reservations aside, if my children chose to get involved with Boy Scouts, I would love to be a leader. I'd like to give my time like my dad, who planned and hiked the Southwest Canyons trip, did for me.

But I can't. The BSA considers me an unfit role model.

lambda2• 16 years ago

Or female.

Remember, the Boy Scouts of America, by design, discriminates against over 50% of the population. Why is it surprising that they'd discriminate against a few more percent?

(Also, polytheists are not allowed. You must believe in exactly one god, though which god it is is up to you)

tptacek• 16 years ago

I had no idea Mike Rowe was this engaged with the Boy Scouts. He has a really interesting life story. And _Dirty Jobs_ is one of the very few decent arguments for paying for cable. Follow the link to the form letter he sends Eagle Scouts; it's just as good as this post is.

Splines• 16 years ago

Every time I see something from Mike Rowe I'm always impressed. From Dirty Jobs, his TED talk, this email correspondence, and even his early days as a QVC presenter, he has always exuded a sense of class and gentility.

trafficlight• 16 years ago

It's okay. You can say it. You have a man-crush on Mike Rowe.

Don't worry, so do I.

slamo• 16 years ago

My headline would have been different:

Mike Rowe arbitrarily defines success, denounces otherwise high achieving boy for not meeting it.

Semiapies• 16 years ago

Blogger writes post requiring complete reading to understand; HN reader TL;DRs and does not.

jggube• 16 years ago

You can be plenty successful without becoming an Eagle. But you’ll never get anywhere by doing things half-way.

Sounds like a pretty solid definition of success to me.

Aaronontheweb• 16 years ago

One of the biggest regrets I have from my childhood was leaving the Boy Scouts when I had to make a hard choice between attending the annual week of summer camp (was made mandatory for advancement when I became a freshman in high school) and hell week for football, both of which occurred at the same time every year (late August two weeks before school started.)

I owe a lot of my character today, particularly my mental toughness, to what I experienced playing football, but I still regret making the choice to abandon Scouting and never reaching Eagle. I suspect I'd regret not playing football had I stuck with Scouting instead. Oh well, life's about choices and their consequences.

CamperBob3• 16 years ago

Or, you know, you could move past both Scouting and high school football.

JoeAltmaier12• 16 years ago

If "move past" means learning nothing from your life...

jbarciauskas• 16 years ago

So, my question is, what is the problem with enjoying an activity as a social activity rather than a goal-achievement activity? If he chooses to spend his social time in a softball league rather than Scouts, is he doomed to mediocrity for not training to become the best softball player he is capable of? Why didn't this conversation end at "sounds like Eagle Scout isn't for you, just make sure to be really good at something else"?

The ultimatum of "Eagle or quit" is nonsensical to me. This person clearly has dedication to other parts of his life, and Scouts is just a soical outlet. Why should he give that up, how does that imply impending mediocrity?

caryme4• 16 years ago

I completely agree. I hate when people ask me if I am an Eagle scout because I feel like they consider me a failure, or at least that I gave up, when I say no. But I don't feel that way myself. I had different priorities and different goals within scouting.

For example, I could have done an Eagle project the summer after high school, but I left immediately to be a camp counselor at the church camp - something I had dreamed of doing since the third grade. Had I stayed home, I would have had the time to go through with a project. But I had different priorities.

I wasn't in scouting for the Eagle. I was in it for the friends and for the adventure. I hiked, biked, and canoed. I helped my troop become more scout-led. I didn't do it halfway.

SwellJoe3• 16 years ago

I hate when people ask me if I am an Eagle scout because I feel like they consider me a failure

That's weird. I don't think I've ever been asked if I'm an Eagle Scout (I'm not; I dropped out at Life, a couple of badges and a project shy of Eagle) in the nearly two decades since I quit. I must not hang out with the kind of people that care about Boy Scout ranks.

chrisa• 16 years ago

While I certainly agree that it doesn’t imply mediocrity, my experience in Boy Scouts is this: While there are exceptions (see dagw’s comment below for example), I have found that scouts who aren’t interested in getting to eagle are a net drain on the troop. Boy Scouts is an organization that is about fun, yes, but it is also geared toward learning and building character. When a scout isn’t actively working toward a goal (the next rank, a new merit badge, etc), they have little else to do but distract others. I understand that not all activities have to be goal oriented, but I do have a problem when the behavior of un-interested scouts affects others in a negative way.

On the other hand, if you’re committed to the troop and activities, but are simply not interested in eagle, (as many here have pointed out) – then yes, I agree.

pyre3• 16 years ago

So everyone in the scouts has to be a goal-oriented go-getter? I had no idea that I was a net drain on the scouts simply for not being a type-a personality.

What I read into your comment is more along the lines of:

  I think that the boys should be on 'this' projected curve
  of achievement going into the future, but these other boys
  that have no goal of meeting my projected curve are distracting
  the other boys that need to spend 100% of their time with
  their eyes on the prize.

If the other scouts really are interested in making it to Eagle Scout then they will remain focused enough to get there. You have to consider the possibility that some boys will see it as a goal because they feel it is expected of them, but it doesn't hold any personal value to them. The uninterested boys that you see as a net drain are maybe the boys who have personally made the decision that they do not want to strive for that goal. Their decision could be affecting the other boys by showing them that not striving for Eagle Scout is also acceptable (but maybe they won't voice that aloud because their parents are the 'driving force' behind 'you must obtain Eagle Scout').

dkarl• 16 years ago

Given your excellence in school, your commitment to physical fitness, and your desire for higher education, that confession strikes me as a bit out of context. I mean, why would a guy who’s so passionate and deliberate about everything else in his life invest his time doing something for which he has so little enthusiasm?

Damn, can't you do anything just for fun anymore? Enthusiasm for an activity has to manifest itself as enthusiasm for earning the highest possible certification?

My advice? Quit Scouting today. Or, quit pretending not to care. Because the short answer to your question goes like this – You can be plenty successful without becoming an Eagle. But you’ll never get anywhere by doing things half-way.

People do all kinds of things halfway. It's inevitable. You're going to cook halfway, dress halfway, play sports halfway, appreciate movies and art and books halfway, train your pets halfway, and blog halfway. Sure, you can pick one or two of those and do them in a fully-assed way, but what about the rest? Are you just going to give them up?

Or are you going to hide behind the fact that nobody has instituted a system of ranking and achievements? Well, did you know you can be tested and certified on your ability to taste wine? Better stop drinking wine! Better not teach your dog to sit unless you're committed to earning the highest AKC obedience titles. Not only would you be half-assed, you'd have a half-assed dog, too. (My question: can you keep the dog as long as you don't train it, or does just having a non-obedience-certified dog make you half-assed?) American tennis players, did you know that the US Tennis Association sorts amateurs into numbered levels? Better stop playing tennis unless you're committed to maxing out! So you like to go hiking on weekends? Uh oh, there's adventure racing and orienteering... you'd better go indoors. You're doing the outdoors half-assed.

Well, maybe he'd agree with me on that one.

minouye• 16 years ago

"The most valuable lesson I learned in Scouting, was not merely the importance of trying things I didn’t enjoy, it was the ability to learn how to enjoy those same things."

Yes, we all do things halfway, but when you are fully committed to a task, a project, or a cause, so much more can be accomplished.

I am an Eagle Scout and I certainly hated a lot of the scouting requirements. They seemed silly, and time-consuming, and frivilous--how many 14 year-old's spend hours weaving a basket?! However, I know a lot of people who got so close to achieving an Eagle rank but chose not to. Did it materially change their life? Obviously not, but a lot of them reflect back on it and think, 'I was so close, why didn't I try just slightly harder?' You don't have to have been involved in Scouting to know that feeling. "I was so close, if I only I had tried harder" is a feeling that sucks and that's what Mike Rowe is trying to tell this Scout.

pyre3• 16 years ago

I think that those people just need to learn to live without regrets, especially because it seems a lot easier the further removed (in time) that you actually are. It's especially useful to live without regrets when you like where you are (or where you are headed) in life, b/c it's possible that those changes in your past could have turned into a worse present (or future) for you.

CamperBob3• 16 years ago

Obviously not, but a lot of them reflect back on it and think, 'I was so close, why didn't I try just slightly harder?'

Because (in the hypothetical case of Scouting) those were goals that someone else picked for you.

To the extent someone convinces you to jump through various hoops to win their approval, that person is controlling you. And yes, it might even be for your own good. But more than likely, it's for the hoop-holder's benefit.

mattmichielsen• 16 years ago

I made it to Life Scout and quit when I was around 15 or 16. At that point, it didn't feel like learning how to weave baskets and such would really help me in life. Also, a lot of younger scouts were joining my troop, and their parents were turning it into Cub Scouts for older kids. Door to door popcorn sales as a 15 year old? Really?

Don't get me wrong, I learned a ton in Boy Scouts. Many of the skills and lessons I learned have proven to be very useful as an adult. And actually, I quit so I could work full time as a mechanical engineering intern, which started the path to the career I have today.

I don't regret not achieving the Eagle rank at all. The trophy isn't what matters, it's what it takes to get wherever you go.

run4yourlives2• 16 years ago

I think you are missing his point.

As he relates further down in the conversation, there is nothing wrong with doing things for enjoyment. As you say people do this all the time. No one is able to be fully committed to every possible field that interests them.

However, in this life, two things are certain: You'll need to find something to "achieve" rather than just "enjoy" to be properly happy. A quick look a Oprah's book club will show you this.

The second thing is that it is self-defeating to eliminate possible passions or areas to "achieve" in simply because there are elements of them that you may not enjoy or that require greater effort than "comfortable". This is the biggest lie of our society today - that there is something out there that will fit perfectly with you and you will never have a bad day, require practice or fail at.

Every human needs a purpose, but not everything that you do needs to be yours. Rowe isn't addressing the issue you raise, but the idea that you can do everything half-ass and some how come out of life fulfilled and happy. In fact, the "smarter" and more naturally talented you are, the HARDER you need to work at your purpose.

It has little to do with what everyone else thinks, and everything to do with what you think of yourself.

pyre3• 16 years ago

  > This is the biggest lie of our society today - that
  > there is something out there that will fit perfectly
  > with you and you will never have a bad day, require
  > practice or fail at.

I think that you are misunderstanding the 'different strokes for different folks' mentality. The idea is that you should be able to find something that you love doing despite possible failures, etc. Something that you wouldn't want to ever stop doing even if you fail at it sometimes.

How many hackers would stop coding just because they hit a wall or found out that their solution was impossible? It's because they love what they are doing, even if they run into issues.

zasz• 16 years ago

I interpreted the letter more as a fleshing-out of the previous letter than a personal attack on the unenthusiastic Boy Scout.

kenjackson• 16 years ago

This ain't the MikeRoweSoft kid?! I wasted my time reading a letter from the guy from Dirty Jobs? I was kinda wondering why people were writing that kid letters.

protomyth• 16 years ago

“Everybody-Gets-a-Trophy” part is particularly rich. I still think the biggest problem with it is that children will not find what they are really good at / really enjoy because they are not allowed to fail and success is cheapened.

julius_geezer• 16 years ago

As someone who dropped out after 2nd Class (probably would've kept on to 1st but we moved), I'm with the kid. It took me forever to make 2nd Class because I had other commitments on Saturdays. But I had a bunch of friends in the troop.

G.K. Chesterton somewhere wrote that "Everything worth doing is worth doing badly." I'm with dkarl on this one.

Mike Replies To A Slightly Offended, Not Very Enthusiastic Scout.

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