Ask YC: I enjoy my cage

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=142441

by klein_waffle • 18 years ago

8 21 18 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

I work for a large company in decline. I see all my smart colleagues leaving for better opportunities, and there are many storm clouds on the horizon for the company. I have all kinds of ideas for startups and I'm itching to try them.

But my team is currently kicking at least reasonable amounts of ass, and is well-supported by management. While there are some alarmingly dumb ideas imposed on us from above, for the most part I am getting to implement my ideas. I have a pretty great salary. I believe we're helping ordinary people. I would be really annoyed if I had to leave it now, because I think we're maybe a year away from having a really great solution in our market.

Now what?

edw5192• 18 years ago

Make a choice. Any of your ideas started with them are no longer yours.

apgwoz2• 18 years ago

That's only true if your terms of employment are written with a clause like that. Even if it is, it's possible to become the owner of ideas formed while employed. Woz, for instance, went to HP and said, "I've been working on a computer and would like to start selling it." HP didn't care about it and gave him free reign.

Other companies and organizations only care about the work you do while on the job (9-5 or whatever) and theoretically have no legal ground to claim ownership on outside projects provided you never do work on those projects while "on the job." Obviously the word "work" in this context could have many different meanings... (I am not a lawyer)

edw5192• 18 years ago

"That's only true if your terms of employment are written with a clause like that."

For many potential investors, that won't be enough. They won't touch you without ironclad assurance of clear ownership of IP.

I stand by my original comment. It doesn't matter who's right or wrong. Can you really afford spending any time in your first 2 years on legal matters regarding IP ownership? Believe me, there are people out there that will do ANYTHING to steal from you. Why tempt them?

jasonlbaptiste• 18 years ago

Make sure work is NOT done on company issued comps

sanj• 18 years ago

Life moves in cycles that are at different frequencies. When they all end up on a peak or trough at the same time, it is trying to tell you something. Listen, and then move, based on your own interpretation of what you want to hear.

In this case, it sounds like you have a project you want to get done. Get it done. Then go on to something new. If you have a PHB kill the project, or otherwise remove your delight in it, use that as the catalyst to move on.

Or, if you wake up one morning realizing that you have to do that startup right now then do it.

optimal• 18 years ago

Let your employer fund your ideas through your paycheck--they don't own your nights and weekends.

I find the hardest challenge when I start a part-time project is staying motivated at the day job. If you're happy there and can achieve this balance then you have the benefit of both worlds.

marcus• 18 years ago

The truth is a bit more complicated than that, ownership of IP generated while working for another company can be a very tricky issue, it depends on your local laws, your employment contract and so on... consult a lawyer.

antiismist3• 18 years ago

IAAL, and I second this. Even if you do everything right and would win in the courtroom, megacorp can make it into a Pyhrric victory by consuming vast amounts of time and money (if you have the resources to get that far, even).

Kaizyn• 18 years ago

If what you make on your own time is related to the business your company is in, then there's a good chance they can lay claim to your idea. So if you're working for UPS and have an idea for a revolutionary package tracking system, you probably wouldn't get to keep it.

Prrometheus• 18 years ago

It sounds like you have capable colleagues who are currently well-paid. That is fertile ground for finding co-founders to implement ideas without assinine obstacles.

rglullis• 18 years ago

Let me see...

- You like your work.

- You are making good money.

- You like your co-workers.

If I were in your position, I'd get part of the money you are making in the day job and use to invest in the ideas you're thinking about. You could easily hire someone (or could even be a co-founder) to work full-time on these ideas and keep that as a side business.

jcl• 18 years ago

I suppose one way to end up working at a small company is to start by working at a large company that is shrinking. :)

ardit33• 18 years ago

It all depends on the state you are living. California is pretty good for protecting employees, not recognizing non-compete clauses, etc....

1. If you are working on your own time, and NOT using company equipment. 2. The idea is original, and did NOT came from copying something from the company. 3. The idea is not a direct competitor of what your company is doing.

You can be pretty safe. It will be hard for your company to claim anything on your work.

antiismist3• 18 years ago

The challenge is to not draw the attention of your employer, even if you are "safe". Imagine for a moment that you work for Oracle, but have a side project that, legally, belongs to you.

What would happen if Oracle decided that it wanted the company? Does any startup have the resources to duke it out with Oracle for the years it will take to resolve the issue? Would any investor put money into a company that had a dispute with Oracle, even if Oracle's claim was without much merit?

read this for what it is like to go head-to-head with a megacorp (about the inventor of Intermittent Windshield Wipers):

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/02/25/005398.html

mechanical_fish• 18 years ago

I would be really annoyed if I had to leave it now, because I think we're maybe a year away from having a really great solution in our market.

Your answer is sitting there in your words. Keep your day job for a year or a year and a half. Then ask yourself the question again.

If you need a project, focus on cutting your expenses. Learn to budget. Learn to cook. Pay off the credit cards. Move to a less expensive apartment. Every dollar you cut from the budget is not just a dollar you get to save for when you're self-employed, but a dollar that you won't be spending when you're self-employed, because you won't be in the habit of spending it.

If "storm clouds are on the horizon" then there's a chance you'll get laid off in the next year. Then you can collect unemployment while you're looking for a day job that doesn't restrict your extracurricular activities. If you quit now, you'd have to do that anyway, without the benefit of the insurance.

I would listen to the lawyers and not-a-lawyers in this thread: Don't do startup work while you're still employed at the company.

bayareaguy• 18 years ago

Computer Associates screwed up so badly in its acquisition of ASK/Ingres that all the key employees left[1]. They threw an ad-hoc party in the parking lot to cheer on everyone who split.

The Perforce[2] founders were among them.

Your situation sounds a little like theirs - they were reasonably happy. But when CA handed them the perfect opportunity, they used the money from their severence package to jumpstart the "p3" product. p3 was renamed Perforce/p4 when they discovered p3 was already trademarked.

[1] http://www.cbronline.com/article_cg.asp?guid=A29F1ABE-CF37-4...

[2] http://www.perforce.com/perforce/corp.html

skmurphy• 18 years ago

Save your money and cut your personal burn rate. This takes maximum advantage of your "great salary" in the best way possible. If you are working on a good team in a "pocket of excellence" in a decaying organization either your team will help to revitalize and reverse the situation or you will be overwhelmed by the slow failure of the larger organization. Have a plan now for how you are going to exploit your success (whether in follow on projects with the same team at the firm or in doing something new) and a risk mitigation plan for how you will judge that the project is not going to succeed (or be overwhelmed by the decline of the company). If smart colleagues are leaving your team for better opportunities then it's unlikely the team will succeed. There is a lot of value in seeing a project through to launch (and volume) but you have to be careful to avoid the "monkey trap" of a good salary and the natural inertia of continuing to work on what you've been doing.

Ask YC: I enjoy my cage

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