Against Normalization: The Lesson of the “Munich Post”

https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/normalization-lesson-munich-post/

by nafizh • 9 years ago

30 30 9 years ago

thro239902• 9 years ago

As someone from East Europe, I am highly offended by this post. Comparing your shit-show to WW2 is @#$%&*...

Mussolini is much better comparation, but not as punchy.

Trump does not advocate genocide, but enforcement of existing laws (mostly setup by democrats). And author should look where Mein Kampf is bestseller...

leereeves10• 9 years ago

I thought Hacker News was above Nazi-comparisons, but if we are sinking to that level, perhaps we should also compare similarities between left-wing groups engaging in politically motivated acts of violence and the Nazi brownshirts.

For example, consider the group UC Berkeley Chancellor Nicholas Dirks called:

more than 100 armed individuals clad all in black who utilized paramilitary tactics to engage in violent, destructive behavior designed to shut [Milo's speech] down.

http://news.berkeley.edu/2017/02/02/campus-condemns-violence...

(But I'd rather we avoid Nazi comparisons altogether. They can be an effective way for an author to get attention but they can be used by both sides and they rarely lead to useful discussion.)

more_original• 9 years ago

I thought Hacker News was above Nazi-comparisons
[makes Nazi-comparison]

Edit: Parent changed

Downvoted without response? I guess I shouldn't be surprised, groups that resort to tactics like those at Berkeley are hardly above trying to silence discussion here with downvotes.

into

(But I'd rather we avoid Nazi comparisons altogether. They can be an effective way for an author to get attention but they can be used by both sides and they rarely lead to useful discussion.)

The latter I can agree with.

leereeves10• 9 years ago

I'm willing to engage in discussion at any level the community prefers.

I'd rather not have it at this level but c'est la vie.

Response to update:

The latter I can agree with.

Are we still flagging political posts here?

Perhaps we could agree to flag Nazi-comparisons, at least.

In that spirit, it's fair to downvote my Nazi-comparison, but only if you also flag the main post.

rjtavares5• 9 years ago

Are you implying that those groups are coordinated with an American Political Party? Which one? Can you provide more information about that?

leereeves10• 9 years ago

Tolerated, certainly.

UC Berkeley Police Chief Margo Bennett said Wednesday night [after the incident described above] she wasn't aware of any arrests by the department.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/protests-violence-prompt...

Imagine:

more than 100 armed individuals clad all in black who utilized paramilitary tactics to engage in violent, destructive behavior

No arrests?

narrator• 9 years ago

Continuous war since 2001 and all 8 years of the Obama administration is the real normalization we should be afraid of.

rjtavares5• 9 years ago

We should be afraid of both (I would even argue that the Trump phenomenon is a direct consequence of the normalization you mention).

nabla92• 9 years ago

'Putin isn't Hitler!' 'Trump isn't Hitler!' Wow, congratulations! You have failed the most basic lesson of learning from history in order not to repeat it!
I wrote about this fallacy extensively in Winter is Coming and elsewhere, but am happy to recap it here. Of course Putin isn't Hitler, and Donald Trump isn't even Putin—no matter how much he would like to be. The point is that no one is making comparisons to the monster Adolf Hitler became in the 1940s. But in the 20s, even for most of the 30s, Hitler wasn't Hitler either! There could be no more important lesson to understand than how a race-baiting demagogue came to power in an educated and liberal country like Germany and how he transformed that nation into a fascist death machine capable of World War and unimaginable acts.

-- Garry Kasparov

Nokinside4• 9 years ago

Zeit has eye opening article Adolf Hitler : "Wait Calmly"

http://www.zeit.de/wissen/geschichte/2017-02/adolf-hitler-ch...

They describe how journalists, even big liberal newspapers, big-business representatives, and conservatives had all the same illusion that Hitler would be something that could be managed and lived trough. Business leaders and conservatives aligned with him because there seemed to be some common interests they could work trough together.

""In the Frankfurter Zeitung, politics editor Benno Reifenberg expressed doubt Hitler had the "social competence" for the office of chancellor, but didn’t think it was out of the question that the responsibility of his office might transform him in ways that could earn him respect. Like Theodor Wolff, Reifenberg described it as "a hopeless misjudgment of our country to believe a dictatorial regime could be forced upon it." "The diversity of the German people demands democracy," he wrote.""

Hitler needed only five months in power to change everything.

leereeves10• 9 years ago

Let's speak plainly.

Are you suggesting that Trump intends to abolish democracy or commit genocide?

aaron-lebo• 9 years ago

If you are going to make this argument (which seems more and more common because the original direct comparisons to Hitler fall flat), how does Trump match up to Hitler in the 20s and 30s?

Where is Trump's attempted coup? Where is Trump's Mein Kampf talking about living space in Eastern Europe and the greatness of Germany and his hatred of Jews? Where is Trump's paramilitary? That was all in place prior to 1930.

Hitler rose to power in a populace that wasn't just "liberal and educated" but had also been ruled by a jingoist elite since the Prussians came to power. Hitler was an ass but Wilhelm was just as bad in various ways and preceded him. The Wiemar Republic was a shaky government crushed by defeat and a broken economy. That's not America circa 2017.

What's comparable?

I don't dispute that Trump is full of hate and is self-serving and manipulative. I don't dispute he lacks tact and even a proper understanding of politics. But if you are going to pull up history, at least treat it with respect. Put it within it's context.

What scares me is if a politician did the exact thing Trump is doing but did it with more tact and with lies that were harder to point out, we'd applaud them. Play governments off of each other and play up identity politics of various kinds and lie to citizens for decades (as has been the American way) and nobody really complains, but someone comes to power who lies to your face instead of behind your back and he's Hitler? Bomb the hell out of countries and destabilize them and it is politics as usual but refuse those same countries entry and now we care?

nabla92• 9 years ago

Nothing goes exactly the same way as before. No analogy is perfect. Comparison to Hitler and Mussolini is best in their populist strategy.

Politically United States is extremely divided. Roughly 20-25 percent of Americans are very supportive to Trump. Among them are far right Christians who look up to Pence.

Trump has no need for goons on the street. Trump needs only one third of senate on his side and he can break all rules all the time with no consequences. Impeachment and Section 4 of the 25th Amendment rules both require 2/3 majority to remove the president. As long as DHS and major law enforcement organization choose WH over court decisions, Trump can enforce his rules despite constant constitutional crisis.

I think its unlikely that Trump goes this path and win, but I think that changes are hihg he might try (P=0.5) and there is real change that he may succeed for some time (P=0.2). When some terrorist attack or other crisis happens, Americans provide more support to their president than he deserves.

thro239902• 9 years ago

Hitler was Hitler since the very beginning. Jews, Lebensraum, arian race... all is in a book he published in 1925.

And Trump/Putin are not profiling people by their race all the time.

belorn• 9 years ago

The last US election can't be described without talking about the loosing candidate. A majority of voters on both side voted, not based on policy, but on emotional hatred towards the other candidate.

To compare it with 1920 Germany, would we have to frame it around the emotional state of both sides. Did the Weimar Republic focused their politics on their hatred for Hitler and his voters? In contrast to the US election, not only did that not happen but when Hitler got elected as Chancellor he did so as part of a minority coalition (41%) where the Nazi party held a meekly three out of eleven seats in the Papen-Nationalist-Hitler coalition. Voter focus seems (as far as historians seems to imply) to be on the treaty and difference between the four political parties.

Against Normalization: The Lesson of the “Munich Post”

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