Dichronauts

http://www.gregegan.net/DICHRONAUTS/DICHRONAUTS.html

by sohkamyung • 10 years ago

100 29 10 years ago

twic• 10 years ago

Is it 'Into Darkness' that has the idea of a space where you can only move forwards, not sideways? This sounds like that mixed with the rigorous alternative physics of the Clockwork Rocket series.

That is, it sounds fun, for quite difficult values of fun.

teraflop2• 10 years ago

Neat. I noticed that the summary for this popped up on Egan's site a few months back, but there wasn't nearly enough detail for me to wrap my head around the premise. Gonna take another look at it now.

For anyone who finds this interesting, you might want to check out Christopher Priest's Inverted World, which is based on a vaguely similar premise. (Although much more closely tied to the "real world", and not nearly as mathematically rigorous.)

teraflop2• 10 years ago

Just posting a follow-up comment to say that the interactive simulation is really the highlight of this set of pages. I was expecting a trivial demo widget, along the lines of the animated GIFs in the article, but it's actually a full 3D rigid-body simulation.

Playing around with blocks and ramps in a browser does a great job of taking the mathematical analysis given in the article, and making it at least somewhat intuitively understandable. But on the other hand, it doesn't exactly make a convincing case that a world built according to these rules could ever be stable!

http://gregegan.customer.netspace.net.au/DICHRONAUTS/02/Inte...

wyager3• 10 years ago

Exciting! Egan is one of my favorite authors; he has an incredible imagination, and is one of few sci-fi authors who often puts an extensive list of citations in at the end of his books. No doubt the physics in this book are very carefully thought out. Looks like there are descriptions of the alternative spacetime he's using at the bottom of the page, so I'll have to give those a read!

rspeer• 10 years ago

I recently read Greg Egan's previous trilogy set in an alternate-physics universe, the Orthogonal trilogy, and it was excellent. (In Orthogonal, time is a space-like dimension, and relativity, optics, and chemistry change accordingly.)

Not only does Egan invent weird universes and let the reader follow the math involved to whatever extent they want, he also tells great stories in the universes he invents.

Orthogonal tells of a society's quest through deep space, searching for a way to survive and save their home planet, using technology they have to invent along the way. (The characters can speak in diagrams, with which they explain the science to each other and to the reader.) It builds up to include some plot twists that are only made possible by the strange nature of time and space.

Dichronauts seems to be an iteration on this formula (now there are two time-like dimensions), which sounds more bewildering and constraining to the plot, but I trust Egan to do it well.

pmoriarty5• 10 years ago

I've always been really disappointed in Egan's work. He's been praised to the stars, so my expectations were kind of high. But when I actually read his work, I found it to be pretty shallow and dry, with cardboard characters, like much hard scifi. He kind of reminds me of Vernor Vinge, for whom I'd also had high hopes, as both authors deal with the singularity a lot -- an idea I really find compelling. Unfortunately, I find their execution to be pretty weak, and even their ideas are mediocre.

jerryr• 10 years ago

Do you have, in mind, superior works that deal with similar concepts? I'm looking for new reading material & would appreciate more author/book recommendations.

pmoriarty5• 10 years ago

Well, they don't exactly deal with the same concepts, but my favorite scifi authors are: Philip K Dick, Frank Herbert, and Stanislaw Lem.

TeMPOraL2• 10 years ago

with cardboard characters, like much hard scifi

I think a lot of sci-fi fans (myself included) don't pay much attention to that because, well, it's not why we read sci-fi. People are boring. Cool science and weird technologies and interplanetary-scale politics are fun. For every story you'd like to tell to make a character "deep", there's a whole genre dealing with it in real-world settings already. Troubled teenagers? Sure, there's a section on Amazon just for that. People in love? Every other book is about this. Etc.

Just my 2¢.

stevendhansen• 10 years ago

Well said.

eropple• 10 years ago

I dunno, man. SF exists as a lens to say something about people. The whiz-bang technology is...I want to say "wank", but I don't mean it pejoratively. That stuff just doesn't mean much. I have great admiration for folks like Robert Forward as people, but...once you take away the technology, they're not saying much. It's potboiler stuff. And that's fine, but I look at that, and then I look at somebody like Spider Robinson, whose inclusion in Analog got Ben Bova no end of shitty emails, and...he's actually sayin' stuff. Like, you don't have to agree with it, but there's something, once you put the book down, that you can take away.

I don't care how hard your SF is: it is always and without exception about what technology does to people--otherwise it's an engineering manual for something that doesn't exist. A lot of the "greats" of hard SF never got that. (Forward, again, comes to mind.) I have a more charitable opinion of Egan than the OP does, to be sure, but I have a strong reaction to the notion that the human element of this should ever, ever be played down. Everything, ultimately, is about people. We miss that at our peril.

This is why most of Heinlein (the tail end of his career notwithstanding--we all know it gets weird, let it lie) still holds up so well despite so much of technology and society having changed in the interim. Even books that weren't trying to be hard SF (his juveniles, which IMO are some of his weakest books, tended towards this) had engineering and mathematical verisimilitude, but it was a concern set well behind the characters who had stuff to do and learn and grow through. (Most of the time. Lookin' at you, Red Planet.)

jerf2• 10 years ago

In some sense, science fiction isn't really a genre. It's really more the lifting of certain restrictions that are in the other genres. You want alternate rules of physics, which is how Greg Egan rolls? Well, you're pretty much automatically in science fiction... even if the story you subsequently tell within those alternate rules of physics are an otherwise normal romance, or adventure, or whatever.

So whereas a when you read a western, you basically know everything about all the basics of the world, from the basic laws of physics through having a pretty decent idea of why "the Claytons would like to burn down the town" (despite having just those nine words, a genre-savvy Western reader has already got three or four basic plots in mind), and thus those things do not need to be explained, in science fiction you need at least some explanation of how the world is different.

Jamming that into a story pretty much has to come from somewhere else. Even in non-science fiction, seeing a novel perfectly balance Character, Plot, and Dialogue, to say nothing of the other elements of a story, is extremely unusual. I mean, like, award-winning unusual. Throw in the requirement that you have World Building in there and you'll generally have to pay the penalty somewhere else. It's just part of reading science fiction.

I can not recall if I first saw this argument from Niven or Asimov (or, worst case, one of the other classic writers); anyone who does please reference if you'd like. Unfortunately, my science fiction bookshelf is all meatspace and the indexing is terrible.

pmoriarty5• 10 years ago

Honestly, that just sounds like an excuse for bad writing. There are science fiction authors who can do a good job at maintaining this balance. For me, Greg Egan just hasn't been one of them.

DanBC• 10 years ago

Axiomatic is probably the best collection of Egan's short stories if you're interested in people.

and even their ideas are mediocre

I don't recognise Greg Egan's work from this description.

maverick_iceman2• 10 years ago

It's true Egan's characters are extremely dry with weak character development but that's the beside the point. The plot and the characters are just a facade on the exploration of new physics.

maverick_iceman2• 10 years ago

You might like Neal Stephenson's novels. They deal with very interesting concepts but also have great plots and character development.

pmoriarty5• 10 years ago

I tried reading Snow Crash and found it to be childish.

filoeleven• 10 years ago

If you like tales of the singularity and you haven't read it yet, try Charles Stross's Accelerando. It's a hell of a yarn and has no lack of character.

mrkgnao• 10 years ago

I've just come here to say that I came here after literally finishing _Permutation City_ around two hours back. It was great.

I can't wait to try Schild's Ladder -- differential geometry, yay!

Dichronauts

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