The WhatsApp suicide

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-37735370

by akbarnama • 10 years ago

98 69 10 years ago

dunkelsten• 10 years ago

So this is what happens, if exponential progress collides head-on with a medieval culture thad had no time to prepare. Absolutely scary - and to me it rather looks like it's helping fighting equality and human decency rather than fostering it.

mistersquid• 10 years ago

So this is what happens, if exponential progress collides head-on with a medieval culture thad had no time to prepare

It's inaccurate to characterize this as a problem with "medieval culture" meeting new technology.

This is a problem of a misogynist ultra-patriarchal culture (subculture?) in which new technology enables abusers to spread evidence of their misdeeds as a kind of perverse propaganda. This is NOT to say India as a whole, or even in the main, is misogynist and ultra-patriarchal.

Another reason I'm calling this out as inaccurate is that it distances many first-worlders (for example, myself in the USA) from such behavior, but we know all too well that such behaviors are replicated at all levels of society from the lowest and most impoverished ghettos to the most advantaged, wealthy, and presumably cultured dynastic families.

Technology in the form of social media enables others to see it and, in this particular instance, the distribution of the video documenting the crime has the effect (intended or not) of further repressing women who would dare to better themselves and their society (e.g. as health workers).

What really saddens me (as well as reinforces the idea that the dissemination of the video reinforces misogyny) is the husband's reaction:

  > But in her home village, anger over Geeta's death is still
  > muted by questions about her honour. Even Geeta's own
  > husband, who eventually found out about the video from his
  > neighbours, shares the prevailing suspicion that she might
  > have done something to encourage the attack. "If she had
  > told me," he says, "we'd have asked her if it was done with
  > her consent. Then we'd have gathered the village elders to
  > decide what action should be taken." He shows no sign of
  > outrage about the rape, and has made no demands for police
  > action.

EDIT: Formatting, punctuation, grammar, readability.

ethanbond2• 10 years ago

Totally. We shouldn't be totally isolating ourselves and our own culture from this abominable behavior.

Like every few months there's a similar story involving some top 10 football team getting away with the same shit.

0xmohit2• 10 years ago

  The court also asked the IT Ministry to examine what measures
  could be taken to block the online circulation of such videos.

Wonder what can be done to block such incidents when ministers in Indian Parliament watch porn.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-02-09/indian-mps-busted-for-...

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/225344/karnataka-ministe...

AlexeyBrin2• 10 years ago

Wonder what can be done to block such incidents when ministers in Indian Parliament watch porn.

This has nothing to do with watching porn. Plenty of men watch porn and don't rape anyone.

It has everything to do with a culture that blames the victim of a rape for the actual rape.

drspacemonkey• 10 years ago

While I don't disagree with you at all, the fact that "ministers in Indian Parliament watch porn" is meant literally makes me wonder what kind of overlap there is. These are elected officials watching porn on their phones during parliamentary sessions. I'm not saying that one causes the other, just that they both might be symptomatic of a related root cause.

0xmohit2• 10 years ago

The culture gets worse because those committing crimes get away so easily. More than 80% of rape incidents go unreported, and a small fraction of the accused in the remaining ones are convicted.

And a fair number of ministers have been accused of rape.

stinkytaco3• 10 years ago

Just in the interest of playing devil's advocate here, do you truly believe that porn does not play at least some role in fostering the culture? I don't know the answer to that, but even if you don't rape anyone, you could absolutely still play a part in creating a culture that blames the victim. After all, if we believe in a culture of influence, then to some extent the media and people we surround ourselves with must play some role in shaping individual attitudes and behaviors, which can then feed each other to reinforce the culture.

Is our porn a reflection of our culture, or are we reflections of our porn?

arpit• 10 years ago

Has an Indian male, reading about this stuff is both extremely horrifying and sadly familiar. What are the organizations and charities who are doing the best work to change this situation? I'd like to actively help.

rosalinekarr• 10 years ago

This is terrible, but blaming WhatsApp seems like a weird leap of logic. If someone harassed you over the phone, you wouldn't blame the telecom company. If someone sent you a death threat in the mail, you wouldn't sue the postal service. If someone hit you with their car, you wouldn't retaliate against the automaker.

It seems like the BBC is just bringing up the name of the popular chat app as a way of generating more clicks. If their goal is raise awareness for the woman who died and people like her, that's noble but a bit misguided. If their goal is simply to generate more viewership and revenue for their website (which it seems like it is), it's deplorable.

vehementi2• 10 years ago

What part of the article did you find was blaming WhatsApp here?

afarrell2• 10 years ago

The title

kyle-w2• 10 years ago

Are you kidding me? WhatsApp want to be in the hands of the uneducated and illiterate and Zuckerberg takes every chance he gets to say this is going to make the world a better place.

If that's the claim they make, they better feel responsible when there are unintended consequences like rural men using the platform as a distribution system for illegal porn.

If every time there are unintended consequences in software and bugs don't get filled, guess what the system does not fix itself. This has to be treated the same way.

stinkytaco3• 10 years ago

If every time there are unintended consequences in software and bugs don't get filled, guess what the system does not fix itself. This has to be treated the same way.

I don't think this analogy really holds. It's not a "bug", the system works as intended.

The big difference between a system like Facebook or WhatsApp and a telco is not that it's the responsibility of the platform -- WhatsApp is not encouraging abuse -- but the fact that abuse can be monitored for.

This raises the interesting question of moral culpability. If the crime can be prevented with certain tools (in this case monitoring tools), is it the responsibility of the platform to do so? It seems that we are shifting more and more to the "yes" end of that spectrum.

tptacek10• 10 years ago

The article doesn't blame WhatsApp, any more than a story abut a murder in Tulsa called "The Tulsa Murder" would be blaming Tulsa. WhatsApp is not the victim here.

afarrell2• 10 years ago

The proper analogy is more to The Cragslist Killer

mSparks2• 10 years ago

the brief was to discourage use of whatsapp. they were given the title. they just didn't write exactly what the ghcq boss that gave them the story to write wanted.

summarite2• 10 years ago

Actually thinking about it, whatsapp can play a role. They say they want to find ways to stop the spread of such videos - we all know that's nearly impossible on the internet as a whole, but in a world where for most people the internet might be primarily whatsapp or similar there is an obvious way: check files against a database of hashes for 'prohibited' files. Same way Dropbox checks for copyright violations, YouTube for copyrighted video and sound or Microsoft's child porn checker.

So you could say if the company would want to address this issue, which is largely occurring on and through its technology, it could do so. You wouldn't be able to stop initial spreas, but if people get the chance to report the spread might be stopped quite early exactly because it's such a conservative society.

Not saying that's the ultimate solution(or even a desirable one) and there are plenty of caveats - but if companies wanted to address the issue they could at least try, so whatsapp/fb is certainly not 100℅ off the hook. That they haven't made any attempt to provide mechanisms to stop this kind of thing was their choice.

Or is there something that just wasn't active here? Eg does whatsapp block child porn distribution or copyrighted materials? Fb is pretty strict on that kind of stuff so I'd be surprised if there's really no mechanism yet.

makomk• 10 years ago

Whatsapp is end-to-end encrypted, remember, including the contents of videos. In order to block videos they'd basically have to undo that and give themselves the ability to monitor everything that everyone is sending, including private consensual sexual content.

mSparks2• 10 years ago

Pretty much nail hit head. They even ran all the way to India to make sure the only thing most readers can associate with is the phone app.

Laced with innuendo that no one who was raped ever committed suicide.

And ignoring the general theme in the region to prosecute the woman after a rape for sex out of wedlock.

instead, lets pick on the phone app that wont let the government read your messages. That is all there is to see here.

cm39• 10 years ago

Some societies are worse than others, but if even in the self-proclaimed modern civilization of the western world professionals in the adult entertainment or sex/erotic services industry are treated like 2nd class citizens, there's a need for a more substantial shift in perception and treatment of something that's as natural as eating and sleeping. It's unnatural that many societies have created ways to suppress human nature in many ways they deem morally incorrect, and it's very wrong that laws reflect the moral world views of some.

I won't go into how there used to be societies which in some regards were more open and safer than today's, or how the treatment by a part of some religious communities goes against those religions' core beliefs.

Empowering people to defend themselves and deal with abuse in a dignified way is very important, and we first need to stop blaming victims as "promiscuous" or "having asked for it". This isn't very different from how we treat people who went to prison.

EDIT: We also need to find a good way to investigate accusations without automatically assuming that, for instance, alleged male perpetrators are by default considered (not found, to be clear) guilty, or that wives do not abuse their husbands. The described societal defects are partly to blame, as are underequipped/unskilled law enforcement or judicial departments. If someone can lose their job and family because anybody merely publicly accuses them of a sex crime or adultery, then it's clear we have a problem on the other end of the spectrum. To me, both are caused by related societal flaws and will take a long time to correct. Another way this surfaces is that people tend to worry more about a government official's personal life than their positive/negative acts in office.

tptacek10• 10 years ago

Up is down. Black is white. Pants are shirts. A story about a woman who was shamed into suicide by a culture --- one of the world's largest --- that blames women for their own violent rapes is evidence that society needs to correct its bias against men.

cm39• 10 years ago

And it may not have helped that the place in question has tribalism in place which classifies persons by their heritage in ways that are unimaginable to most of the HN crowd.

ethanbond2• 10 years ago

People's lives are ruined when they're accused of/charged with any crime, regardless of if they're found innocent later on.

It's weird that we only ever see people complaining about this form of it. Predictable, but weird.

cm39• 10 years ago

You're right. In some communities it's enough for a police car to come to your house for the neighborhood to treat you differently.

cm39• 10 years ago

KirinDave points out in a sibling comment that what I wrote here can be read to blame rape victims. Under no circumstance is that the message I was trying communicate, but I take full responsibility for failing to write an unambiguous comment. I did not mean to blame the victim, and don't think I did, but I'm willing to learn from my failed wording to not repeat in the future. What I tried to express is that due to the way sexuality is handled in most societies, we mistreat rape victims as a result. I'm sorry I failed to convey that message clearly.

I'd be grateful if you can quote what parts can be read in a way that I didn't intend them to be, and I'll either choose less ambiguous expressions or omit the thought entirely, seeing how hard it is to communicate precisely.

Mz11• 10 years ago

Here is an example of wording on this type of topic that you may find useful:

http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2015/11/not-really-r...

tptacek10• 10 years ago

I don't see you as blaming rape victims. What I see instead is:

* A repetition of the trope that sexual culture is to blame for the impact of rape. Rape isn't sex, and prudishness what forced this woman to kill herself. Misogyny was. The issue in the culture we're describing --- and in its echoes in our own culture --- is the power dynamic between men and women, in which women are seen as having an obligation to somehow temper the sexual impulses of men they come into contact with, or else avoid men altogether.

* A diversion from what is a Handmaid's Tale-grade story about the victimization of women to the entirely unrelated topic of whether men suffer unduly from accusations of rape. That's particularly galling given the specifics of this story.

Whether you intended to or not, your comment --- which as Michele notes is at the top of the thread --- had the clear effect of minimizing the tragedy and injustice depicted in this story. I think we should be ashamed of this whole HN thread, which is dominated more by whether the BBC's reporting was unfair to a 400 billion dollar social networking company than by any kind of reflection about what happened to the subject of the story.

I don't know you at all, and I make no claims about what your intent actually was. I'm happy to assume that this was all unintentional. I'm writing about your comment, not about you.

vehementi2• 10 years ago

This makes my blood boil. This is the kind of thing that makes me surprised there aren't more vigilantes. Not from that dumpster fire village of course, but from some nearby place whose reputation is tarnished by association. I wouldn't condone that but given how furious I am right now I can't imagine being physically and emotionally close to the situation in the first place and there not being someone (perhaps more unstable) that wouldn't just go and take vengeance.

if by any chance they do lay their hands on a phone or use ear phones to listen to music, then they are branded 'characterless'"

@#$%!

kyle-w2• 10 years ago

This makes me so angry and upset.

Facebook shouldn't just be holding developer conferences every year. This is way outside the scope of what Tech Companies skill sets can handle. There has to be open public acknowledgement of that at the highest levels and not just the usual PR.

Unintended consequences of tech have to be treated in the same way we treat high priority bugs.

overcast• 10 years ago

Spent the month of March in India this year. It's so sad how the poor, women, and the overall environment are treated there. I think India has a lot to offer the world, but they've got a long way to go cleaning up many aspects of life there.

raisedadead2• 10 years ago

I apologize for the incident, disgusted as I am with this, I just can't seemingly imagine what the women in the article went through. These things shove my proud Indian head into my own @#$%@!

Yet would like to lay a different perspective:

I am an Indian, an average tech professional, doing well in a good job, in a good city. Yes, the majority of my country is conservative. Yes, we have views that are biased against women. Do we have laws to protect them? Yes, we do. Do we have agencies to enforce them? Yes, we do. Do we have resources to support such agencies? Yes, we do.

Yet we see these incidents happening in tens of villages, towns, cities happening every day. Sadly "MOST of them unreported", let alone, being investigated, and the perpetrators getting tried and punished. Trust me on this one, most walk away free, and that encourages them to do it yet again.

The BIG question is then why is a basic safety not in place? You would say, isn't it the job of the law agencies to deal with this. Ugh, yeah... But blooper, a very good chunk of them are "corrupt".

We are not backward in tech arena anymore, though we have WhatsApp in villages where we still have 2 hours of electricity per day.

The technology is already in place, govt. orgs are all on Twitter, WhatsApp, etc. Do respond to requests and complaints (yeah you can tweet to our railway minister Mr.. Suresh Prabhu and he responds with immediate action, ex: https://twitter.com/baloomahapatra/status/792361492796637184)

It's just that the majority of masses are not "technically" educated enough to put it in use. They have access to weapons already (WhatsApp, Twitter, Facebook), but just choose to use them against the good use they should be put to. You don't need guns when you have a pen (now internet).

To me there are two possible ways to bring in some change to my sick country:

1) We tell the people of my country to take matters in their hand: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/sep/16/india.gender

Yes, bring in the knives/guns, castrate the f@#$%ing bastards.

2) Educate, everyone when giving them access to the technology, the apps, the whole internet what they should be doing with it.

The later is a more important step too. Google started an initiative to provide free high-speed internet access at major railway stations, and here is what Patna (capital of Bihar state) did with their free wifi card: http://www.huffingtonpost.in/2016/10/17/patna-is-the-no-1-us...

Yes, Porn.

~~~

The whole point that I want to lay on the table, is we DESPERATELY need to bridge the gap between the cultural conservative "backwardness" and the rapid pace at which we are being given these tech gizmos to play with.

I beg with my folded hands to the govt. To please use my tax money (increase it if need be), to educate the agencies, the village elders, the women who go out to those "doomed" towns of mine, and most IMPORTANTLY the god damned f%$#$# bastard perpetrators that the tech is there to make this country a much better place than it is.

I am doing what I am able to, but if you are reading this please wish my country gets well soon.

I am a proud Indian, in just 70 years we are beating the world to Mars, yet we have burning infernos in the towns, villages, and there are no fire trucks nearby.

Mz11• 10 years ago

From what I have read, there are a lot of infrastructure gaps in India that help fuel such problems.

Thank you very much for commenting.

alphapapa2• 10 years ago

I beg with my folded hands to the govt. To please use my tax money (increase it if need be), to educate the agencies, the village elders, the women who go out to those "doomed" towns of mine, and most IMPORTANTLY the god damned f%$#$# bastard perpetrators that the tech is there to make this country a much better place than it is.

May I respectfully suggest that this is the wrong way to try to solve the problem.

Governments do not fix societies--they break them by the ruling class's manipulating society to remain in power. We see this even in the "first-world" nations like the U.S.

In contrast, societies fix governments when the governments are comprised of the societies they govern. Of course, this is only effective up to the level of virtue of the society in question.

Expecting government to fix society is putting the cart before the horse. Thinking that the government is (or should be) the horse that drags along the society cart is part of the problem. It's like expecting the tail to wag the dog. On the contrary, society is like the horse which drags the burden of a cart behind it.

Fixing a society requires the good members of it to get their hands dirty, not to outsource the job to their government. Easier said than done, but no less true.

raisedadead2• 10 years ago

Yes, totally true, and agreed.

But when the society is way too huge, it's a different game altogether. Compare 1.25 billion people to 310 million in the U.S

In a complex society as India, the challenge to actually execute a "good" change is closer towards the impossible side.

We have 18 official languages spoken in 27 different states, where the dialects change every 12 km (7.5 miles). We have at least 5 major religions, not to mention countless castes and ethnicities. There are just literally thousands and thousands of groups.

While the common vested interest of staying in power remains the same, the number of good members who can make a significant (practical) impact with honest intent is simply insignificant. And on top of that, these few members are split amongst these many many groups, creating an utter chaos.

This may not be the case for other societies for instance in U.S where most players in the society are literate and educated sufficiently to the leverage tech to get a clear picture of what actually the govt. is up to.

Sadly in India, most well-educated masses including myself lead lives that feed their families, which leaves very few brave members to clean up the mess that we have created.

And of course, the bad members use this opportunity to bend the govt. and the society to their best interests.

So while a perfect solution would be to practically difficult.

But, as an honest citizen, I think that education can do wonders. If people are empowered to challenge the govt. when it fails its job, then I think new good members will be born.

Don't you agree? Sorry about the long post, I agree that asking govt. to educate society is not the solution, but "educating society to use technology correctly" on an emergency basis is. Given the state of the affairs, govt. (at least the current one) is perhaps the best vector to deliver it.

The WhatsApp suicide

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