Hacking Women and the Delusion of the Ethical Pickup Artist

http://pathdependent.com/2010/04/07/hacking-women/

by chasingsparks • 16 years ago

19 33 16 years ago

keefe6• 16 years ago

I hate this whole mystery method and all the cultural assumptions that go along with it. I applaud the author for attacking it, but I'll take it one step further.

There's nothing wrong with promiscuity. Sex is good - if you want to fuck hundreds of people, do so and please use a condom every time.

In my experience, women like sex and hate being treated like objects. Here's a "pickup method" that'll have even MORE success than the awesome mystery method :

1) Join a gym. Workout a lot until you have big muscles. This won't take you more than half a year.

2) During that half a year, take up meditation and contemplate your past relationships, your parents, your childhood. Write about it in a journal and become at peace with who you are. Think about what you want.

3) During that time too, concentrate on your career. Get it all laid out in front of you.

Now, you've made yourself as attractive as possible. Next up, find random women - on craigslist, on okcupid, on the street. Talk to them. Treat them like equal human beings and never, ever deceive them. If you want sex but no commitment yet, tell them when that comes up.

There will be some more waiting, sure. Waiting is until fullness. After a while, you will get to the point where you are in good shape, you've got a good career, you're emotionally stable and you deal with women honestly and see things from their point of view.

If you do this, you'll never have trouble finding someone to sleep with. Maybe you can get someone slightly "hotter" and stupider by deceiving people? However, in my 8 years of living with X1 and my 2 years of living with X2 and the single-ness in between, I've noticed there are all kinds of different types of sex. Sometimes, it's just mutual masturbation. Sometimes, sex is a transcendent experience. For me, the experience is always improved with honesty and destroyed by lying. I may not necessarily believe in monogamy anymore, but I believe sex is an expression of love. Love can last a day or a week or a month and it comes so easily when we give up on lying.

nopassrecover3• 16 years ago

I never got the impression these methods were designed as deception. Some guys have a lot of mental baggage that has been hammered into them that is ultimately going to get in the way of them being a man and by focusing on things like acting confident and giving the impression of someone who has their life together they can hopefully gain real confidence and a real life.

nailer2• 16 years ago

> Here's a "pickup method" that'll have even MORE success than the awesome mystery method :

> 1) Join a gym. Workout a lot until you have big muscles. This won't take you more than half a year.

> 2) During that half a year, take up meditation and contemplate your past relationships, your parents, your childhood. Write about it in a journal and become at peace with who you are. Think about what you want.

> 3) During that time too, concentrate on your career. Get it all laid out in front of you.

That's a subset of most PUA techniques (except contemplating your childhood - contemplating past relationships and attempts at them is definitely in).

If you add removing the approach fear, and developing your sense of humor and ability to come up with interesting conversations, congratulations, you're now an unethical PUA and will get angry people writing blog posts about you.

keefe6• 16 years ago

The idea of approach fear is so foreign to me that I didn't even consider it... of course you have to approach women?

Anyway, I see nothing wrong with cultivating sexual relationships. I see the PUA as a man who approaches women who are interested in monogamy and paints himself as also interested in a monogamous relationship or otherwise uses deception to "score" rather than cultivate a new, healthy sexual relationship.

colinplamondon• 16 years ago

Most of the pickup stuff is really nothing more than presenting yourself in an optimized light.

Everyone has an elevator pitch for their business, very few people have an elevator pitch for themselves. Where are you from? What do you do? What's your story? Everyone has a routine for explaining their business, but in a bar or club very few people can get across why they're a cool person. That's because it's a skill that takes practice. Not thinking and meditating and writing, but rather going out, talking to strangers, and improving social skills one conversation at a time.

pbhjpbhj2• 16 years ago

>There's nothing wrong with promiscuity. Sex is good - if you want to fuck hundreds of people, do so and please use a condom every time.

Don't forget that condoms won't protect you from all socially or sexually communicable disease nor are they a guarantee against pregnancy.

>Now, you've made yourself as attractive as possible.

Women are often attracted to selfish bastards (and I don't use the term lightly); the sort that would effectively rob your grandma to make a sale. I think you're over simplifying too much.

keefe6• 16 years ago

I think you should widen your social circle a little and just avoid women like that...

raganwald3• 16 years ago

> 1) Join a gym. Workout a lot until you have big muscles. This won't take you more than half a year.

I'm sure you're being sincere with this advice, but I think there's a major pitfall to be considered with joining a gym. If you're joining a gym to make yourself more attractive so you can meet people, you are already on the road to hell.

What is the difference between big muscles and a hair implant?

I see happy couples who are short, who have acne, who are obese. I myself have a serious receding hairline that is merging with my bald spot as we speak. Join a gym if you don't like your body for YOUR reasons, not because you think it will increase your chances. You don't need a 'nice' body to meet people.

On the other hand...

If you find a sporting activity you enjoy, do it 3-4x per week and don't worry about your body. It will morph itself into something fine. And you'll enjoy yourself, and that enjoyment is infectious. People of both sexes naturally gravitate towards people who are doing something they enjoy.

Co-ed activities like Tennis, Surfing, Ultimate, Rock Climbing, and so on are all amazing ways to meet people if you are sincerely enjoying yourself. Climbing gyms are redolent with sexual tension, you could cut it with a knife.

And after six months, just look at yourself in the mirror and tell me you don't like what you see!

The key is to keep looking until you find something you sincerely enjoy. You'll meet lots of other people who sincerely enjoy it to and you won't need any "game" or "rules" to meet someone wonderful.

keefe6• 16 years ago

Big muscles are certainly more useful than a hair implant and it's shown over and over that being very fit effectively slows down the aging process.

Well, maybe I'm also making the assumption that most guys are like me. I want girls that are either skinny or athletic, that's what I find to be the most beautiful. I would be a huge hypocrite if I was turned on by fit women and didn't workout a lot myself, you know?

HeyLaughingBoy• 16 years ago

There's nothing wrong with doing things to increase your self confidence. For some people, a good-looking body can be one of those things. In the end, it's a self-correcting mechanism: the ones who are doing it just for others will lose interest after a few months. Doing it for yourself can keep you going for years.

For me, weightlifting was the activity I enjoyed. It started out as me being really skinny and wanting to gain weight, but got to the point that being muscular was just a pleasant side effect. The true enjoyment came from the endorphin release of moving heavy weight, the satisfaction of getting stronger every week and just knowing that there was a direct correlation between how hard I worked and what results I achieved.

Where I take issue is okeefe's comment about not wanting to be a hypocrite. You like what you like; it's not hypocritical to be attracted to someone slender and athletic if you are overweight and out of shape.

FWIW, I have never cared much about what people look like. If I like someone enough I will probably find her attractive - that's been proven to me time and time again and the range over which it holds is pretty surprising.

yummyfajitas• 16 years ago

1) Join a gym. Workout a lot until you have big muscles. This won't take you more than half a year.

How do you achieve results that fast? I've been working out seriously for about a year, and while I've improved, I hardly have "big muscles". Could you give me a pointer to detailed information on how to do this?

As for "never, ever deceive", I'd qualify that. Never ever deceive a woman who isn't trying to deceive you. Many women are habitually dishonest and I see nothing unethical about playing the same game they are. All you'll get out of this is mutual masturbation combined with the thrill of "winning the game", but it can be fun for the short term.

keefe6• 16 years ago

This is the approach I use, from what I believe is a reputable source : http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/weight-training/HQ01627 Here's my opinion on fitness in a nutshell: 3200 calories=1lb of fat. 3200 more than you burn, gain a pound and vice versa. Muscles are made out of protein. Muscles grow by being broken down through exercise and then rebuilt. Train until failure so the muscle is broken down and then make sure you get a whole lot of protein into your body. Training is all about routine. Train every other day no more. Get into the habit. Analyze your diet and exercise profile using tools like nutritiondata.com

I do see something unethical about playing the same game they do. For me, I don't lie because of a commitment to myself. If someone tries to deceive me, I will feel sorry for her and almost certainly stop interacting with her. I get no thrill out of "winning the game" and if it is mutual masturbation I need, I can set it up without deception.

khafra• 16 years ago

> I suppose it seems hypocritical of me to lambast Mystery and his cohorts. I have obviously read their material.

I should hope the author would not consider penning a severe and detailed criticism of a body of work without having read it. This part is not hypocritical, but admirable.

The portion with which I find fault is the inherent sorites paradox: At what point does optimizing yourself and your interactions with women for attraction become unethical?

nopassrecover3• 16 years ago

At which point would a woman optimising herself for interactions with men become unethical? (answer: never).

Presenting yourself as the best you can be to those you are attracted to is one of the most basic purposes we have on this world.

pbhjpbhj2• 16 years ago

So there is nothing wrong with cheating/lying as long as your goal is to have "interactions" with a partner?

chasingsparks3• 16 years ago

Considering the entire culture revolves around sleeping with women in a more or less disposable fashion, probably the day after you realize it works.

stcredzero• 16 years ago

Very insightful. So much of our culture glamorizes this sort of manipulative conquest, it's reached the point where it's some sort of deep insight to realize such chicanery is wrong!

When I think about this sort of thing, I start to wonder if the religious right doesn't have a point.

raganwald3• 16 years ago

My simple thought: The men who read "The Game" and the women who read "The Rules" deserve each other. How come they don't end up with each other? Because each is looking for people to con, not for partners.

I like to think of Lions and Antelopes. Lions eat Antelopes, but they mate with Lions. A book telling you how to find and eat prey does not help you find and mate with another Lion. In fact, its methods steer you away from other Lions.

So, at some point you have to decide whether you want to stop fooling around cutting the weak out of the herd and start looking for a true mate.

I don't believe for a moment you're going to do that with a seduction system.

ErrantX• 16 years ago

Hey, I read The Game - I even tried it out for a while. :D

There is useful information in there; but it is obscured by the idea that the ultimate aim is to sleep with lots of women, get pissed and not really care about anything else.

In actual fact when I read The Game I felt I was looking into the mind of a lost individual who found a process to attach himself too. Im not sure if Neil actually learned anything during that time period but it reads like he may have done. Sadly the book only touches on those aspects.

(your analogy regarding Lions/Antelopes is something I'd agree with though)

swombat• 16 years ago

"Becoming a PUA" is definitely a bit of a warped aim, but I have personally benefited from reading those books. For example, the "3-second rule" to remove approach anxiety does not turn you into an oversexed asshole, but it does greatly increase the chances you'll actually chat to girls. Hell, I even use that "technique" when networking. Approach, smile, say something (anything) within 3 second of spotting the next "target". Works great.

I'd argue that although the programmes themselves are destructive, the books published on the topic are useful when read by smart people who realise there's more to life than sex and can "switch" into a more mature mode of behaviour once they find a suitable potential mate. I guess, like all good tools, what it does depends on who uses it. Assholes become bigger assholes. Good guys become more successful good guys. Sounds like a good starting point to me.

pohl• 16 years ago

This is a very imbalanced blog post. At least the author is up front about his biases ("Unfortunately, I doubt that this group dominates his readers. Instead, I assume...") but stays far from acknowledging that it is just a tool, and any tool can be used for good or evil. I can build a home with a hammer, or I can bash your head in. I can live a long life of copious but fleeting, shallow entanglements - or I can use my knowledge to deepen and secure one life-long relationship. (This makes me question his claim to being a hacker...isn't such a view about tools rudimentary?)

Anyway, no essay that claims to explore the morality of these techniques is complete without an honest acknowledgement of the ubiquitous & accepted industries geared towards helping women misrepresent themselves so that they can hack the simple automata that are the masculine visual and olfactory processing systems.

reader5000• 16 years ago

There's no such thing as "hacking" women. If you can be attractive to a woman then you are attractive. I mean maybe wearing an earpiece and having somebody else feed you lines would be hacking a woman. But the good 'pickup' gospels basically just tell you how to become an actually attractive person. This is necessary in modern society since modern society is so comfortable with its xboxes and dorritos men have no impetus to ever leave their houses and therefore do not learn how to be attractive naturally. I think inasmuch as the pickup meme gives men the courage to go outside once in a while it does more good than bad.

flatline• 16 years ago

There have been "self-help" books out there along these same lines for years. Most of them are written by guys, largely with the perspective of how to manipulate women into bed. While this is an attractive proposition, particularly for young guys with raging hormones, it's not what most people are looking for in any long-term sense.

There was one book that was popular a few years back, "10 Secrets to Success with Beautiful Women", written by a former supermodel, that I thought actually had some good stuff in it. It dealt with basically the same subject matter without any of the egotistical BS.

blurry• 16 years ago

http://www.amazon.com/Ten-Secrets-Success-Beautiful-Women/dp...

etherael• 16 years ago

Did anyone else find it amusing that whilst systematically dismantling the evolutionary cues of the target candidates and exploiting those cues in order to provide false positives, the entire premise of the action falls victim to the exact kind of tactics it lays out in order to achieve victory?

That being, these men are going out looking around for women with all the evolutionary cues for feminine fitness which are hardwired into our brains whilst seemingly blissfully unaware that having those evolutionary buttons pressed in themselves they're not making any kind of conscious or rational decision about the kind of women they actually want, they're just falling victim to their own evolutionary cues.

jdminhbg• 16 years ago

Here is my problem:

"I find no fault in youthful promiscuity. Oscar Wilde could have written a novel about my college years. It was part of my development as a person and I have (almost) no regrets."

This strikes me as similar to the advice naturally skinny people give to the fat -- "Why don't you just eat less and work out more?" If something comes to you naturally, it seems like a real jerk move to blithely assume that it's the same for everyone else. The author had a decent amount of natural success with promiscuity, and now he looks down on people who have to work on it. If something doesn't come naturally to you, you shouldn't be allowed to experience or enjoy it?

chasingsparks3• 16 years ago

However, I always had some recognition as to the vapid nature of what I was doing. Mystery and his pickup hucksters want to nullify that socialized feeling, feeling themselves justified by our selfish genes and tribal heritage.

That's the part I should have focused on more, judging by some of the comments. I don't object to promiscuity; I object to delusional promiscuity. Having experience with it, I wanted to say that it is a lot more glamourous on paper than in real life.

Ignoring the "vapid" nature of it all, I failed to include one of my personal most important lessons: sex for women, even if ostensibly casual, is rarely consequence free. They are wired differently. Occasionally you'll get a girl who just wants a meaningless night, but more often than not, they'll pretend they are okay with it while hoping for more. Considering the pickup artist community has rules about (effectively) going on three dates, it is misleading if you are only after sex.

That being said, it's not like me being in shape and telling fat people to work out more. It's me telling people who are not assholes that, having once been an asshole, you should not aspire to be one.

roc• 16 years ago

The author seems to be making the classic mistake of assuming everyone is coming to the material for the same reason.

He is apparently past the stage of promiscuity and was looking for help finding a true mate. The MM disappointed him. So now he's preaching against the MM itself, rather than against the MM as a tool to meet his particular goal.

I bet if confronted about the contradiction, he'd claim he never meant to disparage the young using the MM to improve their own "youthful promiscuity" experience.

Whether he'd change his article is another story. He'll clearly get more attention as it is.

Hacking Women and the Delusion of the Ethical Pickup Artist

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