IPad thoughts from Ben Fry (creator of Processing)

by ewjordan • 16 years ago

106 60 16 years ago

alain• 16 years ago

The worst enemy of freedom in software is not Microsoft, it's Apple. You're pretty free to develop and distribute software as you want on Windows. On new Apple devices, they control the way the software is distributed, they tax you, they make you obey their rules. Imagine a world with appstore as the main way of distributing software for any kind of devices. This would be hell. This is where Apple is going. Stop using Apple. Use Linux, or if you can't, use Microsoft.

cookiecaper• 16 years ago

Unfortunately I don't think these private individual political boycotts are very effective. If you want to stop Apple, you need to bring something clearly better to the market, and that thing needs to have the underlying structure necessary to reach Apple's core audience and tell them how much better the new thing is and why you don't need Apple's crap anymore.

middayc4• 16 years ago

Well private individual will also have a hard time bringing something better to the market than apple.

Individual's first strength is to boycott something. And to raise his/shes voice so that the alternative arguments are heard too.

I just called 90% of my techie/geek colleagues pussies over twitter after reading this.

rimantas3• 16 years ago

  If you want to stop Apple, you need to bring something
  clearly better to the market,

Oh, please, someone crying how evil Apple is do that. I guess that's the only way for you to understand what real users want, what Apple does, and why it does it.

  is and why you don't need Apple's crap anymore.

I won't need "Apple's crap" when someone will finally get what usability and user experience means.

middayc4• 16 years ago

I can't say anything else but agree.

Keyframe• 16 years ago

Couldn't agree more. Though I'm waiting to see what new Mac Pro will bring. Tuth is I can't find dual processor machine for same money/quality as apple makes it, even though I'm installing windows on it (mostly for applications I'm using). Mac Pro is one damn nice Windows box.

rauljara• 16 years ago

This is only true of the iPad/iPhone ecosystem. For OSX, they give away development tools better than the ones microsoft charges ridiculous amounts of money for. Almost all apple-made software (even the kind they sell) doesn't even make you enter a license key. If you are honestly worried about a closed app store coming to OSX based on what Apple does with phones and devices that they clearly think of as large phones, you are paranoid.

barrkel• 16 years ago

Microsoft's developer tools are free (at the entry level), and I would question the assertion that they are worse than Apple's.

akmiller2• 16 years ago

"For OSX, they give away development tools better than the ones microsoft charges ridiculous amounts of money for."

People tend to make this claim and I just don't understand where it comes from. Microsoft has made available the express editions of Visual Studio for the last several years and they are pretty damn good.

roqetman• 16 years ago

It's all about money - if they start making more money on ipad-type devices, and less on osx-based devices, they'll start making more ipad-type devices. Follow that line of logic and you'd end up in the more restrictive world of the ipad-type devices. But I did say if.

bad_user2• 16 years ago

Sorry, but having worked with both, Visual Studio is miles ahead of Xcode. I even did an app for a client in C++/Qt that wanted it running in OS X ... developed 100% in Visual Studio. That's because at the time (at least) Xcode wasn't even having Intellisense (and Visual C++ does have the best intellisense available).

Visual Studio Express is free to use ... and it's enough for almost every need you might have. And before that you could use the #Develop which is an open-source IDE for C#/VB.NET.

And while Xcode doesn't even support intellisense properly, Visual Studio is in a different category altogether considering that you can also develop with it web applications / Silverlight clips, supports many more languages and has a really healthy plugins ecosystem.

Not to nitpick, but Microsoft is endorsing Mono lately as THE Linux/FreeBSD/OS X alternative. On Linux I can have a dotNet app that uses Windows Forms running ... can you do the same with Cocoa?

Of course Mono for Apple would be an abomination that had to be destroyed (considering how they sued Psystar and even Wired on publishing an article about hackitoshes)

(pretty ironic I'm defending Microsoft, since I've been badmouthing them for years, but compared to Apple they start looking like saints)

orangecat2• 16 years ago

If you are honestly worried about a closed app store coming to OSX based on what Apple does with phones and devices that they clearly think of as large phones, you are paranoid.

Then I'm paranoid. Like Mark Pilgrim (http://diveintomark.org/archives/2010/01/29/tinkerers-sunset), I don't believe Apple will be selling general purpose computers to consumers in 10 years. Remember Steve Jobs's plan for Apple: "milk the Mac for all it's worth and then move on the next big thing". The next big thing is mobile computing, and Apple has made it clear that they want absolute control.

upinsmoke2• 16 years ago

You can freely distribute Mac OS X software. Why are you comparing Windows with iPhone/iPad?

I'm going to compare games on Mac OS X and Xbox, why can't I make Xbox games and distribute them freely, when I can do that on Mac OS X?

Sephr• 16 years ago

I think he means Windows Phone 7 and Windows Mobile.

rimantas3• 16 years ago

Sad to see so logically flawed argument getting upvoted—that means many of us don't bother to think any more and vote purely on "four legs good, two legs bad" mentality.

  The worst enemy of freedom in software is not Microsoft,
  it's Apple.

Makes no sense. Neither MS nor Apple are enemies of freedom of software. Apple is using a lot of OSS, contributes a lot to several projects, pushes for open web.

  You're pretty free to develop and distribute software as you want on Windows.

And? You are just as free on OS X. And OS X kernel is open source. Can you get Windows kernel source?

  On new Apple devices, they control the way the software
  is distributed

Yes. And that's because it's a win for majority of the users of said devices, not because Apple is "the enemy of free software". BTW, how does an Apple App Store compares to Zune marketplace? I guess the latter gives you more freedom?

  they tax you,

Huh?

  they make you obey their rules

And who doesn't? If you don't like the rules, don't buy Apple is as simple as that.

  Imagine a world with appstore as the main way of
  distributing software for any kind of devices.
  This would be hell.

That would be hell because? That would be hell to whom? To those who want to have a convenient way to buy apps, without worries about making backups, with easy way to get upgrades, without a fear of getting malware?

  Stop using Apple.

No, I won't. It gives me the biggest freedom so far.

  Use Linux

Then worry more about making linux more useable to ordinary people, who care about usability, not some fuzzy freedom ideals.

  or if you can't, use Microsoft.

Thank you, but no thank you. You don't need Apple to tell how you use your devices, I don't need you to tell what I should or should not use.

jlgosse• 16 years ago

I'm pretty sure he means they tax developers at 30% of each sale, whereas you could just sell your shit independently and save yourself that 30%.

Just say you sell an application for $4.99, this means Apple takes around $1.50. If you sell 100k copies, Apple is gouging you $150,000.

Great, you don't really care because you made $350,000. Not so; You're going to lose a shitload of that to the IRS. In essence we're looking at being double-taxed. It sucks.

grinich3• 16 years ago

... Then worry more about making linux more useable to ordinary people, who care about usability, not some fuzzy freedom ideals.

This has huge potential.

stcredzero• 16 years ago

Imagine a world with appstore as the main way of distributing software for any kind of devices.

I think such a world would be much better for most end users. And a lot of people have already voted with their wallet that this is so.

If there were many App Stores, then market forces would come into play. Someone would figure out how to get developers paid without mistreating them. Then really smart devs would start flocking to the other App Store, forcing Apple to reform or lose mindshare.

mos1• 16 years ago

The worst enemy of freedom in software is not Apple, it's Nintendo. You're pretty free to develop and distribute software as you want on OS X. On new Nintendo devices, they control the way software is distributed, they tax you, they make you obey their rules. Imagine a world where all applications must be licensed and vetted by Nintendo, for all their devices. This would be hell. This is where Nintendo is going. Stop using Nintendo. Use Ball on a String, or if you can't, use Apple.

grinich3• 16 years ago

Have you built and sold any iPhone apps?

jstevens85• 16 years ago

You should include Google along with Apple. I understand that Chrome OS won't allow any native apps whatsoever. The only native apps that will run are Google developed apps. So by your logic, Google is even more evil than Apple, right?

CrLf2• 16 years ago

The control that Apple has over the iPhone and the application distribution channel does contribute greatly to the iPhone's success. It makes the platform easily accessible to people who aren't inclined to search the internet for apps and are, in fact, afraid of doing it for all the malware experiences they have on their PCs. They know the App Store has everything, and that they can reasonably expect that the apps won't harm their device.

But, the iPhone is still just a phone. Most people don't hit the walls of the room Apple has them locked in. Heck, most people don't even do much with their iPhones... They rarely browse the web or use it to do serious email (one line replies in a pinch are not "serious email") because they find the screen too small and the experience too cumbersome when compared to a real computer. They install some apps, but never really use them besides the first few minutes, unless they're games, which also says much about the typical iPhone user: phone calls and games.

The people that complain about lack of openness are the exception.

Now, the iPad is not an iPhone. Nobody will buy it to make phone calls, although they will certainly play games in it. The iPad is more of a computer, and more people will hit the walls of Apple's control. _This_ is what's going to define the iPad's success.

It is a beautiful device, but if the average Joe expects it to behave more like a standard computer than an iPhone, and if Apple doesn't make it more open, it may very well end up a failure.

I like the iPhone, and if I weren't the kind of person that lives fine with just a basic phone, I would prefer one over the alternatives (android et al) even though it is much less open. On the other hand, I won't buy an iPad despite how beautiful it is because it is too expensive for something that's not a real computer.

pvg2• 16 years ago

The control that Apple has over the iPhone and the application distribution channel does contribute greatly to the iPhone's success.

Does it really? The iPhone was hugely successful well before there was an App Store.

ryanwaggoner• 16 years ago

Yeah, you couldn't install any applications on the device, which is the ultimate control. You can easily argue that the device is much more open now that developers are able to create the 150,000 apps that have been downloaded more than 3 billion times.

CrLf2• 16 years ago

Hugely successful depends on where you look. Bu anyway, it doesn't really matter to the discussion, unless you are agreeing with me when I say that to most people the iPhone is just a better phone. Which is what the iPad is not.

glhaynes2• 16 years ago

It is a beautiful device, but if the average Joe expects it to behave more like a standard computer than an iPhone, and if Apple doesn't make it more open, it may very well end up a failure.

Exactly what's appealing to the average Joe about the iPad IS that it acts more like an iPhone than a standard computer.

stanleydrew• 16 years ago

I'm not sure we know that's true yet.

jsz0• 16 years ago

I voted your comment up but I could not disagree more with your assessment of how people are using their iPhones. We know from real data that the iPhone dominates mobile web usage. We know people are downloading and buying a ton of apps -- it's really unthinkable to believe they don't use any of them more than a couple times. If so they wouldn't keep buying/downloading them.

Kilimanjaro• 16 years ago

The iPad will sell like hotcakes and while some preach doomsday for freedom others will make millions developing for it.

At the end, pops and moms will be happier than ever with their new computing experience that doesn't crash every day and has to be formatted and reinstalled every other month.

aw3c22• 16 years ago

"Kilimanjaro, I want to send some of our holiday photos to aunt Annie with your mom's iPad. Where can I plug it in? Dad."

"Kilimanjaro, your father bought a book which I would like to read too. Could you tell us how to copy it to my iPad too? Love, mum"

brk• 16 years ago

There's an app for that. Or, there will be.

tumult• 16 years ago

"Hi Dad. You'll have to buy one of these http://images.apple.com/ipad/specs/images/usb_connectors_201... for the iPad, unless your camera has built-in uploading. Look on the box for a WiFi icon."

"Hi mum. Plug your iPad into iTunes and click 'add device to authorized list' under the Advanced menu when dad is logged into his iTunes account."

webwright• 16 years ago

My dad uses his GPS software almost every day (his GPS has Windows software) and likes 1st person shooters. My mom uses her quilting software almost every day. My uncle, a farmer in Iowa, uses QuickBooks for accounting. People have shelves of software that they use/love even if they aren't fans of Windows or OS X. Presuming they buy an iPad and lug their Windows boxes (which neither crash every day nor require reinstallation every month) to the garage, what are they going to do to?

Eventually there might be good software to fill up these niches, but it's going to take quite a while. And people will constantly be assailed with web sites and software boxes that have GOOD SOFTWARE that they can't put on an iPad. The App Store Apple is competing against is the rest of the world--- millions of Apps (some of which are really good!) and gazillions in marketing dollars.

glhaynes2• 16 years ago

That's why Apple (so far, at least) talks about iPad exclusively in the context of being an addition to a PC or Mac. In fact, it requires a computer for backup and OS upgrades.

The fact that your mom can't run her quilting software on it (so far) doesn't mean it can't do all the other things well and be a very welcome addition to her life. It just means she has to keep using her PC for quilting. At least until somebody realizes there's an opportunity for a good quilting app.

cpr• 16 years ago

His thoughts make a lot of sense, but I really wonder if he's not missing the forest for the trees, like a lot of writers on this subject.

It's not the little hacks (e.g., font organizers, window minimizers) that are going to make or break this platform: it's going to be the immersive apps that capture people's imaginations. (And most "real people" don't care about OS hacks.)

I know I've already got way too many killer ideas for this platform, really the first to incorporate touch computing in an intelligent, affordable fashion, and I suspect many others are in the same boat.

So the lack of hackability may simply not be an issue. Within a given app, the world's your oyster; you can do just about anything.

The gatekeeping problem may be the bigger issue, but there are so many great apps waiting to be built that are completely non-controversial from Apple's point of view, and that will fulfill the promise of the platform.

The recent sweep-up of semi-porn and cookie-cutter apps makes complete sense to me; as a retailer, who wants all that crap on their shelves? And as a developer, why would I want to be doing anything in those areas (unless it's simply to exploit people for their money)?

I do have some areas of concern that affect my plans: Will Apple ever permit a full-blown non-Safari browser app in the store? That's a biggie. And will Apple ever permit an interactive programming tool like Smalltalk adapted for the touch screen, or (one of my ideas) a graphical meta-calculator building tool that ultimately allows the user to do "real" programming?

Ultimately, I think the answers are yes and yes, but the unsureness of those answers is troubling.

orangecat2• 16 years ago

Will Apple ever permit a full-blown non-Safari browser app in the store?

If it's just a WebKit wrapper, probably. If it's a different rendering engine, not a chance.

And will Apple ever permit an interactive programming tool like Smalltalk adapted for the touch screen, or (one of my ideas) a graphical meta-calculator building tool that ultimately allows the user to do "real" programming?

Smalltalk, no. Graphing calculators with variable assignments and stuff, sure as long as you can't create things that resemble real applications.

Ultimately, I think the answers are yes and yes, but the unsureness of those answers is troubling.

I'd be looking at developing for Android tablets, where you don't have to give the manufacturer a kill switch to your ideas. Or HTML5 if possible.

middayc4• 16 years ago

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loumf• 16 years ago

The iPad and iPhone puts the needs of the user over the needs of the developer. I agree that the whole "take down the network" line is ridiculous -- but "take down your phone" is not at all ridiculous. Most of the apps I have bought are from unknown (to me) developers -- I would never download a Mac OSX app from any of them without doing a little research to get some confidence that it wasn't going to be malware. Most of the time, it isn't worth the trouble -- I buy OSX software all of the time, but only from established vendors.

With the app developer program, approval process and store, there is a pretty good chance (better than ever) that your device will keep working and that apps you use can't (won't try to) do anything malicious. It lets single developers get access to a market that is very hard to break into.

Certainly, there are decisions Apple has made with the AppStore and approvals that are ridiculous. But, in the history of all human endeavor, there is no complex operation that doesn't have problems. The vast majority of apps are approved without incident. Apple has solved many more worse problems with app distribution than the ones they created.

My main gripes are lack of transparency of the process (and your progression through it) and no way to revert to a previously approved version (or fast track a bug fix). Also, the lack of any way to offer paid updates is a big issue for funding future versions of apps. The control over the platform doesn't bother me at all (as a user or developer).

bugs• 16 years ago

My favorite criticism of the ipad came from a morning show host who is somewhat tech savvy was asked by his co-host if he wanted one he responded:

"I already have one it is called an iphone."

rimantas3• 16 years ago

  To use an example, if things “just worked” then I'd be able
  to copy music from my iPod back to my laptop, or from one
  machine that I own to another.

True for the first part, as for the second: this feature is built in into iTunes, it even allows you to see the music that's not on your computer and copy it with a simple drag and drop.

  The thing that will be interesting about the iPad is the experience
  of using it — something that nobody has had except for the folks at
  Apple — and as is always the case when dealing with a different type
  of interface, you're always going to be wrong.

Not sure what he has in mind talking about experience. I gather few folks had a chance to try it out after it was presented and all were raving how fast that thing is. Then a lot of folks keep saying "it's just a bigger iPhone", but don't know what the UX will be. Well, if it just a bigger iPhone (it's not) user experience is going to be as good, only better.

Then people cry and predict the end of hacking, tinkering and programming. Folks, don't forget: with iPad also comes out new free SDK. But maybe shouting about freedom is just a tad easier than using it.

IPad thoughts from Ben Fry (creator of Processing)

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