Apple admits use of child labour in China

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/apple/7330986/Apple-admits-using-child-labour-in-China.html

by alexandros • 16 years ago

40 71 16 years ago

telegraph.co.uk

mithunk• 16 years ago

And how are going to make Apple force the issue with companies like Foxconn and Wintek? These conditions are the reason why Apple enjoys the margins it does.

KC8ZKF5• 16 years ago

You make Apple force the issue with public outcry. It seems to be working; did you read the article?

yequalsx18• 16 years ago

Yeah, and how often does this occur? How many factories are contracted out to in China by American companies that aren't subjected to public outcry? Apple should face very severe sanctions for allowing this to happen. They are not innocent.

heimidal• 16 years ago

According to the article, they launched this audit and have already pressed the issue to the point that the three factories in question are no longer employing 15 year-olds.

Apple enjoys high margins because of a very effective marketing strategy, excellent product design, and an extremely loyal customer base. It has nothing to do with the fact that their subcontractors were employing a few underage workers.

alexandros2• 16 years ago

I understand the general sentiment against child labour, but somehow a 15-year old doesn't seem incapable of working at a factory. Child and teenager are diferent words, except when they're not. People have been working the fields from small ages throughout history. As long as the child didn't drop school or something else to go there, maybe getting a job was the best idea. Having a hard age limit just seems arbitrary, outsourcing the worries about worker mistreatment (a real problem) to a magical number. Perhaps, counterintuitively, not being able to get the amount of workers necessary for the cost allowed by apple's contract, leads manufacturers to press workers to work longer.

ErrantX2• 16 years ago

agreed.

"Child labour" should mean either young children or sweatshop style working. How many US/EU teens work paper rounds for less than minimum wage? :D

nfnaaron2• 16 years ago

Regardless of what the term should mean, if the law says it's illegal to employ a fifteen year old, and fifteen year olds are employed, then the law was broken. Routinely broken age labour laws, where records are purposely falsified, creates an environment where other labour laws, and laws in general, can be seen as obstacles to be subverted rather than protections and responsibilities.

It's not a trivial thing.

P.S I had two paper routes simultaneously when I was fourteen.

P.P.S Can kids even get paper routes in the US these days? My limited observation is that it's now large routes driven by adults who throw papers from car windows.

yequalsx18• 16 years ago

Similar things were said in the U.S. when we outlawed most forms of factory work for children. Our society became better when we did outlaw this.

How about this form of outsourcing? Rather than Apple owning and managing the factory in question they contract it out so they can assuage their guilt when children end up working there.

derefr2• 16 years ago

> Our society became better when we did outlaw this.

Cite for this, please. As far as I know, we outlawed child factory labor purely because children, with their small bodies that could fit into more-easily-constructed mineshafts, dexterous hands that could assemble small parts, and lesser demand for pay, were being preferred for most jobs, and so adult workers basically had a union action against them to make sure their own jobs were safe. This decreased efficiency, took a source of discretionary income away from children who wanted it (these weren't forced workers; they just took jobs to better their life), and artificially lowered the unemployment of adults who couldn't compete with kids.

philwelch10• 16 years ago

The US passed laws against child labor when it did because it could afford to, ultimately. You don't find too many poor societies which spontaneously decide to build schools for everyone below the age of 18 and prohibit them from working. You might find a few where some foreign imperialists decided to build schools and send all of the country's youths to it, but I assume you're against that sort of thing.

Notably, the US also decided for themselves when to pass such laws--they didn't have the matter dictated to them by the countries they exported goods to.

imok202• 16 years ago

I worked at a lab programming for minimum wage when I was 15; this isn't sweatshop work. Children are allowed to work in the US, too. (Though, certainly, not at factories.)

The title is is misleading, as well: Apple contracts these oversea factories; they don't hire or force children to work for them. It's all a bit inflammatory.

KC8ZKF5• 16 years ago

Did you work sixty hours a week when you were fifteen?

"In its report, Apple revealed the sweatshop conditions inside the factories it uses. Apple admitted that at least 55 of the 102 factories that produce its goods were ignoring Apple's rule that staff cannot work more than 60 hours a week."

vishaldpatel• 16 years ago

So there were 7 15 year olds at a factory in China. Most of the employees were adults here, but a few weren't. Perhaps this isn't an example of forced child labour, but rather some 15 year old being the primary bread winner for their family?

Social safety nets aren't the same everywhere.

fiaz2• 16 years ago

How can you be so certain that the conditions are benign in the factories under question?

yequalsx18• 16 years ago

Ah...the old imperial justification. Apple doesn't directly hire the children to work in the shops so their moral obligation ends there. I'll bet those kids even earn more than would have made if Apple hadn't contracted out to the factory.

I wonder if your working conditions were the same as the Chinese kids' working conditions. Hmmm...I wonder if you would be willing to work under the same conditions as these kids work in.

viraptor• 16 years ago

I don't think that OP was ok with the working condition. Just that the article throws blame in the wrong direction. You can work as a 15-yo in many countries, but you have special law protection and lower maximum working hours. I don't see anything wrong with children working.

Meanwhile there's a much bigger problem: "The technology company's own guidelines are already in breach of China's widely-ignored labour law, which sets out a maximum 49-hour week for workers." If there were no children, would it be ok? Would the article even be written? This rule affects all the workers. And since the rule is "widely-ignored" I expect many more factories with even worse conditions.

Unfortunately "Apple fails" + "Won't somebody please think of the children?" seems to be more important than specific law being broken on a nation scale.

imok202• 16 years ago

I, too, do wonder.

Right now, it's not clear what those conditions were; my comment was meant to address the only clear-cut part of this vague article: that 15 year-olds were working in a factory.

I'm not justifying poor working conditions, nor am I justifying overwork (though I find it interesting that we don't see it as criminal when professionals spend around 130 hours a week working.) I was simply astonished at the knee-jerk reaction so many have when children... gasp... work!

Substantiated claims that the working conditions of these children were poor can be addressed separately.

But, by all means, protect these children from feeding their families.

philwelch10• 16 years ago

"I wonder if you would be willing to work under the same conditions as these kids work in."

That rather depends upon what the possible alternatives are, doesn't it? The average middle-class, privileged westerner wouldn't, but the average middle-class, privileged westerner has much better options--and for that matter, turns his nose up at the idea of living without cable TV or a microwave oven.

If there's a way up to the developed world's standard of living that doesn't involve sweatshops, it hasn't been discovered yet. Thankfully, the sweatshop stage is growing shorter and shorter over time.

xenophanes2• 16 years ago

Why do you think the kids work there? Is it voluntary or involuntary?

Suppose it's voluntary. If so, then if you stop them from having that job, they will believe you've hurt them, by taking away their preferred life option. Correct?

godDLL• 16 years ago

telegraph.co.uk:

"Apple admits using child labour […] At least eleven 15-year-old children were discovered to be working last year in three factories which supply Apple.[…]"

apple.com/supplierresponsibility/auditing-compliance.html:

"In 2009, our audits identified 17 core violations: eight violations involving excessive recruitment fees; three cases where underage workers had been hired; three cases where our supplier contracted with noncertified vendors for hazardous waste disposal; and three cases of falsified records provided during the audit."

"Apple discovered three facilities that had previously hired 15-year-old workers in countries where the minimum age for employment is 16. Across the three facilities, our auditors found records of 11 workers who had been hired prior to reaching the legal age, although the workers were no longer underage or no longer in active employment at the time of our audit."

EDIT: Emphasis added to highlight relevant bits.

fiaz2• 16 years ago

A relevant music video bringing awareness to child labor exploitation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdrCalO5BDs

Batsu2• 16 years ago

"Apple admits using child labour"

"Apple has admitted that child labour was used at the factories that build its computers, iPods and mobile phones."

There's a world of difference between those two statements. The first being the headline, the second being the quick summary.

Talk about link bait.

alexandros2• 16 years ago

Which is why I've subtly modified the title here.

Batsu2• 16 years ago

Apologies, wasn't accusing you of baiting. I did notice that you changed the title :)

tvon• 16 years ago

> "Apple admits use of child labour in China"

Still reads as if Apple is doing this directly.

jrockway• 16 years ago

At least they don't let iPhone apps show boobs. They wouldn't want to "sully" their image.

yequalsx18• 16 years ago

I don't know why you are getting down voted. It's says much about society that you are. People on this site get outraged about App Store policies but not about child labor and Apple's ability to wash it's hands because the labor was contracted through a third party and they periodically do audits. God forbid Apple actually own the factory that makes their products and ensures that no children ever work there.

philwelch10• 16 years ago

Apple may not own the factories (why the fuck would they, they're not a manufacturing company) but they do what they can to ensure children don't work in the factories that build their products. They've stopped doing business with the contractors that were using child labor.

This story is the moral equivalent of turning "Apple fires employee for kicking co-worker in crotch" to "Apple caught kicking employees in crotch".

jballanc• 16 years ago

Please, if you are in favor of child labour and worker exploitation, the best thing you could do is express your outrage at Apple for independently auditing, investigating, and punishing their suppliers for these practices.

I think all American companies should know that, if they take it upon themselves to reveal what is already happening in China in an attempt to right the wrong, they will be rewarded with sensationalist headlines, public outrage, and bad press all for the sake of page views.

Oh, and you might want to read the other side of this story: http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/10/02/27/apple_taken_to...

bravura2• 16 years ago

How completely repulsive is child labor? Is that worse, or it is worse to deny being the father of your child, and being a deadbeat dad who forces your baby's momma to support your child using welfare?

"Jobs also has a daughter, Lisa Brennan-Jobs (born 1978), from his relationship with Bay Area painter Chrisann Brennan. She briefly raised their daughter on welfare when Jobs denied paternity, claiming that he was sterile; he later acknowledged paternity."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jobs#Personal_life

philwelch10• 16 years ago

I don't think anyone considers Jobs a morally exemplary person for that, but there's no point bringing it up in a totally unrelated discussion.

Auzy• 16 years ago

Actually, I'm not sure I believe the "pro-Apple" story entirely. It states "During most of our audits, suppliers stated that Apple was the only company that had ever audited their facility for supplier responsibility".

Seriously, who the hell asks their suppliers if they have been audited by other clients?

I think its great Apple audited their supplier, but I'm not convinced we have the full story (in fact, its possible they were tipped off in this case too, and that's why the age audit was initiated). I should also add that we shouldn't praise hardware companies for performing an audit once or twice. Furthermore, they certainly aren't penalising their suppliers for their poor working conditions!

All that will happen is a few underage workers will stop working. The living conditions will still be a joke, workers mistreated, and the dodgy supplier wont suffer in any way (other than needing to find replacements).

philwelch10• 16 years ago

"Seriously, who the hell asks their suppliers if they have been audited by other clients?"

Who says anyone asked? If I was the only company auditing my suppliers, they would probably say "I don't understand why you're doing this; none of our other clients have ever audited us."

Apple admits use of child labour in China

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