The Bloom Box: An Energy Breakthrough?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/02/18/60minutes/main6221135.shtml

by dpapathanasiou • 16 years ago

42 48 16 years ago

cbsnews.com

dpapathanasiou• 16 years ago

I just saw the broadcast; it doesn't seem the video is up yet.

samps• 16 years ago

This article is ludicrously short on technical details -- anyone have more?

Devilboy4• 16 years ago

The system uses natural gas to generate electricity locally. They say it's up to 85% efficient if you also use the heat it generates to heat your home. Modern large scale natural gas-powered plants seems to be about 60% efficient according to my quick Google searches.

If this thing is cheap enough it could be worthwhile, but only in cold climates where you can use the generated heat.

seriousken2• 16 years ago

Does that 60% figure include transmission losses, or is it just thermal efficiency? I'm guessing the latter.

cookingrobot• 16 years ago

A more efficient natural gas generator is fine, but not exactly "green" compared to wind, solar, thermal, hydro, nuclear or other carbon neutral tech. Does this device include carbon capture, or does it just spew CO2?

easp• 16 years ago

Most of the reason that natural gas generators are not more efficient is that utilities aren't willing to pay for that efficiency. Natural gas is more expensive than coal but it can be used in realively inexpensive gas-turbine generators that can be spun up and down quickly to meet rapid swings in demand. Since those plants are only opearted part-time, utilities worry more about capital efficiency than fuel efficiency. Unless these things are cheaper, their added efficiency might not win many existing natural gas generation customers.

shib71• 16 years ago

Is it just me or is the writing style oddly insubstantial? I can't put my finger on it.

BigZaphod• 16 years ago

IMO, it reads almost like a fictional news interview for a TV show. :/

gojomo• 16 years ago

Seems like a transcript of the TV segment -- so compared to something that was written to be read, it's more informal, less substantial, more dependent on timing/delivery (which is lost in the transcript) for its effect on the listener.

dandelany4• 16 years ago

The Sabatier reaction creates methane and water from CO2 and hydrogen:

CO2 + 4H2 → CH4 + 2H2O

NASA is investigating its use for harvesting water from exhaled CO2 on the ISS, and it has been proposed as a way to make fuel on mars. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabatier_reaction]

Based on the way it's presented in the video, I'm guessing he may have found a way to catalyze this reaction in reverse using methane and water as fuel, and probably also reharvesting the leftover H2 in the process. (Granted, I have no clue if any of this is possible).

This process must inevitably produce CO2, but the question is, does it produce significantly less of it than the current "generate power in one place and ship it around the country" system? If so, it must be heralded for what it is - an incremental improvement in energy efficiency; and companies will treat it as such, as it will be cheaper. But it's not an be-all, end-all solution to our problems.

dandelany4• 16 years ago

Check out this 2008 patent application with Sridhar's name on it: http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20080318092

Abstract: A high temperature electrochemical system, such as a solid oxide fuel cell system, generates hydrogen and optionally electricity in a fuel cell mode. At least a part of the generated hydrogen is separated and stored or provided to a hydrogen using device. A solid oxide regenerative fuel cell system stores carbon dioxide in a fuel cell mode. The system generates a methane fuel in an electrolysis mode from the stored carbon dioxide and water by using a Sabatier subsystem. Alternatively, the system generates a hydrogen fuel in an electrolysis mode from water alone.

nazgulnarsil• 16 years ago

he invented a new kind of fuel cell but no papers have been published. i call BS. the fact that its marketed as "green" typically means it costs much more than current solutions but "people should be happy to pay because its good for the environment."

pingswept2• 16 years ago

I agree with you, even though your shift key is broken. I don't think it's useful to discuss new green technology without mentioning the cost. If we ignore cost, the energy problem has been totally solved for decades.

shrikant• 16 years ago

Borked Shift key or laziness? Where are the double-quotes coming from? ;)

brandon272• 16 years ago

I highly recommend watching the video.

I'm a skeptic, but this is exciting. No emissions from the power generation itself; they have large customers already (Google, eBay, Wal-Mart, Staples).

dandelany4• 16 years ago

If you got "no emissions from the power generation itself" from the video then you're not skeptic enough.

danielharan5• 16 years ago

Technology that takes oxygen and fossil fuels in, and out comes oxygen - with NO emissions?

Bullshit. Matter doesn't just disappear; something else has to come out.

pingswept2• 16 years ago

Perhaps the box is larger than it appears in the photo? Or made of latex?

sethg• 16 years ago

Well, natural gas turns into carbon dioxide and water when it combusts. But allegedly this box can run on other kinds of fuel as well.

danielharan5• 16 years ago

so find me a fuel he mentions that combines with 02 to produce no emissions.

Good luck.

keenans• 16 years ago

Part of the BusinessWeek article on Bloom from last December discusses emissions: "Though the technology consumes hydrocarbons, Sridhar says, it doesn't involve carbon-releasing combustion, so it emits only about half the greenhouse gases of conventional energy sources."

http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/dec2009/gb2009...

Devilboy4• 16 years ago

The carbon has to go somewhere! If it's not being converted to CO2 then what are they doing?

gfodor2• 16 years ago

Oh look, someone has decided to write off a startup by extrapolating details from a fluff article and using their chemistry expertise gleaned from their undergraduate freshman coursework. Color me shocked.

Appropriate given:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1141536

If you actually did a little resarch you would realize the point here is that it not only reduces carbon output vs. combustion (and likely makes this output less polluting) but is designed for developing countries lacking a grid to have a better outlet to produce energy efficiently.

danielharan5• 16 years ago

hey look, ad hominem!

For the record, that's high school chemistry, and I'm not writing off the potential of the startup. If they can bring costs down, this has potential wherever you'd normally have a backup generator, or wherever co-generation is efficient.

I do call BS on their green claims, just as I'll call BS on the developing countries bit.

teilo3• 16 years ago

I think you are not listening carefully. 60 minutes said that "no emissions" was the holy grail, NOT that Bloom Energy achieved zero emissions. In fact, Bloom themselves talk about greenhouse emissions in their materials. 60 minutes is just playing the typical bait and switch game.

So, calm down a bit, dude.

danielharan5• 16 years ago

I am calm; check http://twitter.com/chebuctonian/status/9461662523

Bloom are carefully dancing around the questions, saying some outrageous things like "it can use solar". Had I spent hundreds of millions on this, I would want to make it look green too.

anateus2• 16 years ago

There certainly aren't enough detail to call bullshit with true certainty, but this does exhibit several classic warning sign. Specifically the level of secrecy around the technical details.

On the whole this seems to be some sort of non-combustion natural-gas-based fuel cell. Well... Could work. They tend to hand-wave a lot of details in these broadcasts, so they may just not have mentioned certain aspects.

Would I get even a little bit excited before more proof emerges? Not an iota.

johnnyb4• 16 years ago

A bit further into the video, it says WalMart, eBay, Google, etc. all have these boxes installed. I'd be surprised if he's able to trick all of these companies into buying some fake technology.

danielharan5• 16 years ago

Fuel cells do work. The big giant warning flag is when they claim no emissions.

So you put CH4 and 02 into this thing, and nothing comes out? Riiiight.

anateus2• 16 years ago

I saw that. That's the one detail that makes me not dismiss it out of hand.

I don't know what went into making those deals, but it is rather unlikely (though most certainly not impossible) that he was able to dupe all of them.

_debug_2• 16 years ago

Their web site has a 2-day countdown timer, by the way: http://www.bloomenergy.com/

joshu• 16 years ago

I was hoping this would be about Bloom filters.

hammmatt2• 16 years ago

It would seem that there is a bit to much hype around the product. Perhaps as more information comes out, the more 'out there' claims will gain credulity.

The real power of this discovery is going to be the ideas and patent behind it.

Since the dawn of the industrial age we have depended on some form of combustion/heat generation to produce steam thus turning turbines and creating electricity. This technology might be the first real step in generating electricity cheaply and efficiently through more elegant processes.

This may be the first iteration of changing the way humans gather electricity.

The Bloom Box: An Energy Breakthrough?

Related Stories