Why I think you should try dvorak

http://marcostoledo.com/why-i-think-you-should-try-dvorak/

by mtoledo • 16 years ago

12 28 16 years ago

wglb• 16 years ago

So we see the typing speed before, but we are left to wonder what the post-switch typing speed is.

mtoledo5• 16 years ago

Yea good point. I tried going to typeracer and got some ~80wpm scores, but that's fairly anedoctal since I don't have any proper history of my typing speed.

briansmith2010• 16 years ago

You probably shouldn't, really.

tome4• 16 years ago

Care to justify that statement? It's not a very Hackernewsish comment as it stands.

rewind• 16 years ago

Off topic, but sometimes when you see a really moronic comment like that, check the user's profile. You can see he/she created the account just to post a dumb comment. Just downvote and ignore.

ComputerGuru• 16 years ago

I use Dvorak just because with it I don't suffer from typing-related wrist and arm pain.

The (IMHO) improved typing speed is just a secondary effect.

JeremyChase• 16 years ago

I used Dvorak for a couple months and loved it. However, at the time, I was using other people's computers so frequently that I couldn't make the switch at that time. Lately that isn't the case so maybe I should try it again...

tome4• 16 years ago

I had a painful (in two senses) transition to Dvorak about eight years ago.

The first pain was RSI that I got through typing a lot. I decided to try Dvorak to see if it helped.

The second pain was touch typing incredibly slowly for a few weeks whilst I learned the layout. It was a great experience, typing is a lot more comfortable, and I've never looked back.

Regarding the negatives:

You need to switch back when using other peoples’ computers

Kind of. If you type on their computer for 5 minutes, just hunt-and-peck. If you type on their computer for an hour, go to the control panel and switch their layout into Dvorak!

Nearly no availability of keyboards with dvorak layout

It doesn't matter at all. If you're using Dvorak for a sensible reason then you're touch-typing. If you're touch-typing you're not looking at the keys.

Having to relearn all your hotkeys

I can understand why Vim's hjkl would cause an annoying transition, but location independent hotkeys will cause you no problem.

Deestan• 16 years ago

> You need to switch back when using other peoples’ computers.

I find it's exactly like speaking two languages. I have no problem just typing QWERTY on other people's keyboards, though it is slow going for the first minute if it's been a while.

ecyrb2• 16 years ago

I learned vi after switching to Dvorak - so I don't have any vi-Qwerty muscle memory. That makes for a painful 5 minutes at someone else's desk, but they pick up vim commands better if I tell them what to do.

I echo the RSI sentiments though. Dvorak is more comfortable for myself. I'm somewhat tempted to try Programmer's Dvorak for the brackets/braces/parens at some point, but I do like having my (Dvorak) TypeMatrix 2030 keyboard reflect my actual keymap.

mtoledo5• 16 years ago

I tried the programmer dvorak and, though it has some more accessible keys, the number keys as 753190246 and the fact you needed to type it holding shift (or pressing caps) eventually seemed worse than normal way, point being I type a lot more numbers in a row than symbols in a row, so holding shift or pressing caps for numbers got very frequent

kowen• 16 years ago

My dirty secret is that I haven't remapped Vim's control keys. I make up for it by moving around my searching a lot more than by using hjkl.

After the first few months I tried suggesting to people that they should try dvorak, but mostly they just look at me like I'm an alien, so I kind of stopped. My mom actually tried it though - that was pretty cool (even though she decided not to make the switch).

aubergene• 16 years ago

What about Colemak, see this letter frequency diagram

http://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?pid=596#p596

ljlolel• 16 years ago

I'm surprised nobody mentioned Colemak. The Colemak keyboard layout is easier to learn and potentially faster than Dvorak (http://colemak.com/).

It is easier to learn because it changes many fewer keys, especially the less frequent ones which are harder to learn because you rarely use them. I found I could never remember where z and v were on Dvorak. Also, many hotkeys stay in place (ctrl+c, ctrl+v, etc).

I learned Colemak (from 0 to 70wpm, now like 90) in 10 days (I had learned and switched back from Dvorak before, though, so I was used to learning new keyboards).

It is potentially faster since it was designed after modern computers were invented and depends more on "finger rolls" to type common substrings quickly. With Dvorak, I often used the same finger to type adjacent letters. I also used my pinky a lot. That was painful. Finally, Colemak keeps punctuation in the same sane place, so it's better for programmers.

Colemak is the 3rd most popular layout. I use it and find it available or trivial to install on all modern OSs. I can easily use other people's computers by either switching the keyboard layout, or just by glancing down which causes my mind to switch to qwerty mode.

mtoledo5• 16 years ago

Vote up for people trying Colemak. I'm all for people exploring with their typing layouts and seeing what works better, even if I haven't tried it myself.

jlouis• 16 years ago

I used Dvorak for about 7 years but I am now back to QWERTY. I learned to type with 10 fingers back in 1994 or so when in school. The reason I am back to Qwerty are:

Many programs choose their shortcuts based on QWERTY. Espcially editors like vim or emacs.

I don't type particularly faster on Dvorak.

I can't really feel a difference between the two schemes which makes one a killer over the other. In other words: Both schemes are about equally decent.

loup-vaillant• 16 years ago

Then change the short-cuts of your editor. Especially one like vim or emacs.

http://xahlee.org/emacs/ergonomic_emacs_keybinding.html

mtoledo5• 16 years ago

That's a pretty nice link!

I use my emacs with most default key bindings in dvorak and haven't noticed it any better/worse than qwerty. Like I said on the article, ymmv

Xichekolas• 16 years ago

Why is dvorak really better than qwerty?

It's more fun.

Everyone tries to justify it as more comfortable or faster, but really it boils down to it being fun. (I use dvorak.) Sure, you spend more time on the home row, and certain key chords are much more natural, but everything has its drawbacks. One thing no one tells you is that dvorak is brutal on your right pinky... especially if you use *nix and type things like 'ls' a lot. After a while your pinky gets stronger and you no longer notice, but everything has its advantages and drawbacks.

So really, lots stop spending all this effort justifying and evangelizing our keyboard layouts. If you enjoy a non-qwerty layout, then by all means share it with the world, but stop making it something bigger than it is.

mtoledo5• 16 years ago

I'm sorry if I'm making it bigger than it is. I really just mean to make it as big as I think it is.

The more comfortable claims seem to be echoed by a lot of other dvorak typers here as well.

Also, the pinky strain is echoed a lot, even if I haven't really suffered that (perhaps for playing the piano and guitar??), so I think that's something to watch for too.

Loic• 16 years ago

I was skeptical about Dvorak, I read a lot about it, here and in other places, then in a day of "madness" I went ahead and bought a Typematrix 2030 USB with Dvorak layout.

It took me 2 months to go back to speed and I was not that good at typing, looking regularly at the keyboard with my Qwerty.

But now, I don't know if this comes more from the Typematrix or Dvorak, but anyway, the combination is so great, it is the first time in my entire life that I am fully touch typing, with the feeling that all the keys are naturally falling below my fingers. I will never go back.

Note, I am a solo entrepreneur working from my home office, so I do not have the problem with the switch between home and work keyboard. I started in March last year if not wrong, so my experience is a bit more than "just a test".

ecyrb2• 16 years ago

I switched to Dvorak with a regular keyboard and noticed a reduction in wrist / forearm pain. It was only years later that I picked up a couple of TypeMatrix keyboards as a luxury.

briancooley2• 16 years ago

Does anyone have suggestions for good online training for Dvorak? One of the big hindrances to learning Dvorak seems to be the lack of available learning tools.

briancooley2• 16 years ago

Here's one source: http://gigliwood.com/abcd/

tome4• 16 years ago

I learned by printing out the keyboard layout, sticking it about my keyboard and just typing stuff that I'd have to type anyway. (Granted this is a slow method of learning so may not work for those who are pressed for time).

gnosis• 16 years ago

Here's some research in to alternative keyboard layouts which are (arguably) even more efficient than Dvorak and Colemak. [Also included is an application for optimizing your own keyboard layout based on criteria that are important to you (such as minimizing the use of the little fingers, weighting one hand more than another, etc..)]:

http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx

The most efficient keyboard layouts are described here:

http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?full_optimization

Ixiaus• 16 years ago

After resigning from my job at an IP firm, I decided to undertake the learning and use of Dvorak over QWERTY. I got rather proficient at it and like it a lot.

Programmer’s Dvorak is particularly awesome – my most often used keys were readily available and my typing speeds were much higher.

Something suffered though. My emacs environment used a Dvorak command remapping mode that played nice with some of my other major modes but broke the majority of my most often used commands in some very important modes. I chose to forgo Dvorak and switch back to QWERTY because I didn’t want to maintain multiple different remapping packages for my Emacs environment, BIG pain in the ass.

I did, however, become a much better QWERTY typer because of it and greatly wish to become ambi. Maybe my next go will be a project in itself to better support Dvorak with my Emacs environment!

Why I think you should try dvorak

Related Stories