Ask HN: What is the root cause of Muslim violence and how do we end it?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10565629

by sbenitoj • 11 years ago

6 23 11 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

There's a lot of debate on this topic, and it's obviously a problem worth solving, but it seems the problem can't even be discussed without most people getting angry and throwing out ad hominem attacks.

elmerfud• 11 years ago

This is kind of like asking, what is the root cause for young earth creationists beliefs and how do we end it?

sbenitoj• 11 years ago

Yeah I agree it is, how do you deal with that problem?

psgbg• 11 years ago

Hmmm. "Muslim..."

This is the same with all kind of violence most of it doesn't have a reason.

But in this case it has. In the case of terrorism it's a business. Their goal it's to stablish an image and get the people that might oppose them prefer to do not intervene. And the people they want submission be that submissive. With this they can exercise control. Impose authority, sell protection (for example) and control any kind of illicit activities.

It's the same with the drug cartels like "The knights of Sinaloa", the organized crime remember the "Cossa Nostra". The mongols to cite an old example.

Conquer by fear.

To end it, well that's another issue. You need to end their flux of money. Cut their recruitment systems. End the fear.

qatester3• 11 years ago

Simple, U.S government leave oil exporter countries and do not f..k their brain with your "democracy". let them manage their own economy, issues, they are not stupid, they can handle and solve issues on their own. Do not lie to your people by saying you are defending from terror attack, thats just ridiculous, you are killing your own citizens and middle east citizens only to get richer.

it_learnses2• 11 years ago

unacceptable. we are all human beings and like it or not we are connected. if a shariah govt. is suppressing the rights of the people who don't believe in religion or who believe in women's rights, then damn right we're gonna act.

There are some issues that are global such as basic human rights and we can't just say we won't interfere. If you expect to export your oil to us and do business with us then don't take away basic rights and freedoms from people who don't agree with the majority, i.e. with Islamic theocracy.

qatester3• 11 years ago

Have you ever heard about Kaddafi and how they lived? Have you ever heard violence in their country? Why the hell west destroyed their country? Can you compare current Iraq after war vs before war? you are saying that shariah rules suppressing human rights, thats actually how your teachers thought this to you, and do not forget your teachers are US gov and mass media. there is one formula for democracy: culture + accepted rules = gov. rules

If you think women rights are suppressed in east countries you are wrong, why? 1. you dont live there, so you cannot give objective idea. 2. things which are strange to our culture might be totally acceptable for their culture and maybe they are happy with that. Think about western women who wears anything she likes or even doesnt wear anything if she wants, so does this mean eastern people should come to west and bomb europe and say hey you are violating women right as we believe in our culture? what the hell is this? is this acceptable? when charlie hebdo creates comicses about died Russian people in Egypt is this acceptable? or do you say this is freedom of speech? f..k this kind of dual face freedom of speech and democracy, give people their rights to live on their country with their culture in peace, do your business in your country, if you want to buy something, buy it, dont try to teach them how to live, they know how to live, if they dont they are trying to find a way, this is a nature of human.

MalcolmDiggs• 11 years ago

I'm no expert, but my basic understanding is that Islam is actually a peaceful and loving religion. So the violence commonly associated with Muslims is actually just a radical fringe, not the primary group.

So in that sense, there is no Muslim-violence problem any more than there is a Christian-violence problem, or a Hebrew-violence problem. So I don't think the solutions to this problem would be in any way specific to Islam. We, generally (the US included) have a serious mass-violence problem. We're all aware of the school shootings, and army base shootings, and theater shootings, and other kinds of violence domestically. I'm hoping that there is a solution to address all of these types of violence.

So far, the only thing I can think of is: better mental health care. But I'm sure there are many reasons that's not a real solution.

theheck6• 11 years ago

I encourage you to read the actual text of the Quran, there are ample quotes that advocate violence against infidels and martyrdom, even if there are some quotes that contradict them.

qatester3• 11 years ago

When France and US killing lots of people, everyone uses words: defend, democracy. When someone from that countries are doing same everyone says: violence, attack, terror. I am not defending violence by ISIS, they are f..ked brains, but put yourself on their place and make decision, when your relatives, brothers and sisters are killed by US/France bombs, what would you do? (P.S. I am not from Middee East)

theheck6• 11 years ago

I think you're right, violence against Muslims does not cause Muslims to question their religious beliefs, it hardens them.

theheck6• 11 years ago

The root cause of most Muslim violence is that most Muslims actually believe the claims that the Quran makes about reality.

Here is a sample of such quotes directly from the Quran:

"Believers, if you yield to the infidels they will drag you back to unbelief and you will return headlong to perdition. . . .We will put terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. . . . The Fire shall be their home" (3:149-51)

"Believers, do not follow the example of the infidels, who say of their brothers when they meet death abroad or in battle: ‘Had they stayed with us they would not have died, nor would they have been killed.' God will cause them to regret their words. . . . If you should die or be slain in the cause of God, God's forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches they amass" (3:156).

"God will not forgive those who serve other gods besides Him; but He will forgive whom He will for other sins. He that serves other gods besides God is guilty of a heinous sin. . . . Consider those to whom a portion of the Scriptures was given. They believe in idols and false gods and say of the infidels: ‘These are better guided than the believers'" (4:50–51).

Yes there are also some quotes in the Quran that contradict these quotes (like all religious texts, it's highly contradictory), and some people may be animated by charismatic individuals who distort the text, but Muslims who commit violence in the name of Allah need not believe anything more than the specific claims that the Quran makes to rationalize their violent actions.

The solution to this problem is like asking, "What's the solution to someone who still believes in Santa Claus at the age of 30?"

If you encountered such a person, would you let them continue to believe in Santa Claus or would you empathetically attempt to communicate to that person that they need to deeply examine their beliefs and ensure they're based in reality, based on evidence that can be readily observed.

But when most atheists and agnostics encounter a Muslim (or a Christian, or a Jew, or any religious person), they simply roll their eyes and shrug it off because they don't "want to get into it with them."

I'm not saying you have to go around trying to prove everybody wrong all the time, that's a recipe for ensuring everyone hates you. But religious beliefs are dangerous and they are the direct cause of violence -- not just Muslims of course, the Crusades are an obvious example of Christianity being the direct cause of violence.

The solution is to be empathetic, but not apologetic about the fact that their religious beliefs are not rooted in reality, and all beliefs should be.

TL;DR -- When you encounter a religious person, be empathetic, but not apologetic when communicating that their beliefs are based on a made up story rather than rooted in reality (as all beliefs should be).

rtl493• 11 years ago

I've encountered this explanation before (most notably from Sam Harris), and I don't feel qualified to disagree with it, but I wonder how you account for the difference between the actions of Muslims and those of other religious traditions whose holy texts contain comparable passages.

If language advocating violence in a religion's scriptures were in itself sufficient to motivate its adherents to commit acts of violence, I would expect comparable levels of violence from these other religions. Given that this is clearly a problem unique to Islam in the modern age, it seems that the proximate cause can't be the Islamic scriptures alone.

Even if I'm not convinced, I disagree that you deserve to be downvoted. You've voiced an unpopular opinion, but it isn't rude or inflammatory (except possibly for the Santa analogy) and doesn't advocate inhumane behavior toward Muslims.

insoluble2• 11 years ago

it seems that the proximate cause can't be the Islamic scriptures alone.

My hypothesis is twofold: (1) The people doing the violence have been sold on these passages of the scriptures by others; and (2) The people doing this selling are acting for another reason. Hence, the scriptures are serving as a justification, not a cause in and of themselves. There were plenty of times in history where Christians used passages to justify their actions, while the actions themselves were motivated by completely different desires. Essentially the people in discussion here are using scriptures in the same way that lawyers use legal code -- not as a reason to sue, but as a justification of why suit is permissible.

It's all too easy to point a finger at the justification being used. In fact, the ego loves doing so since it helps one to remain willfully ignorant of the actual reasons behind the occurrences. Religion is not the cause; Religion is the justification. Without looking at the cause, one cannot answer the why, nor can one know how to resolve the issue without jumping on the "It's all the religion's fault" bandwagon. The ego loves the path of least resistance.

theheck6• 11 years ago

My beliefs were definitely influenced by Sam Harris' writing (on religion anyhow, not a fan of his views on statism and torture).

You're right that other religions have similarly violent claims (like Christianity), but we generally don't see people going around committing violent acts and using the Bible as justification for them.

Here's how I account for the difference -- most Christians no longer deeply believe in the more violent passages in the Bible anymore. For example, what would the average Christian say if you asked that person, "should adulterers be put to death?" [1] The far majority of Christians will say no. You don't see many pastors and priests preaching fire and brimstone anymore. All their parishioners have gone elsewhere (but those verses are still in the Bible!) Nonetheless, Christians certainly had their turn in senselessly murdering people (e.g. the Crusades), and those people rationalized their actions using actual verses in the Bible.

However, if you ask the average Muslim, "Can suicide bombing of civilian targets to defend Islam be justified?" A large percentage of them will say yes! [2] Even if it's not a majority of Muslims, the fact that there are double-digit percentages who either "sometimes" or "rarely" say such actions are justified is scary.

Now as for the question of WHY do most Christians no longer believe in violence while Muslims do, I don't have a fully formed opinion on that matter, so I'll withhold it. But I still think it's valid to claim that religious texts can and are used as justification for violence.

[1] Leviticus 20:10 "If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death."

[2] Using the numbering at the bottom of the page, see the table on page 53 --http://www.pewresearch.org/files/old-assets/pdf/muslim-ameri...

trcollinson• 11 years ago

As the other commenter pointed out, I don't agree with your mass down voting. I don't necessarily agree with your argument or your conclusion but never the less, I think you presented it quite well. I am also not qualified to comment on Muslim texts and their interpretations.

I think it should be pointed out though that you have basically made a good and qualified epistemological argument for empiricism. Again, I see nothing wrong with that. But these arguments are nothing new and have, quite literally, been around for millennia. Religion, with all of the varying texts and belief systems, falls squarely into an argument within epistemology. All I ask is that people remember there are many theories in this space of philosophy and while you might "communicat[e] that their beliefs are based on a made up story rather than rooter in reality", they may point out that your reality has changed significantly over a very very short periods of time as abilities to use your senses in different ways to gather knowledge have evolved and changes, and that your reality will continue to do so.

Now, with that, these are philosophies! I can't stand when we teach philosophies as sciences in school (yes, I know, this is a personal belief, but it still drives me batty).

theheck6• 11 years ago

Ha, there's at least one person who doesn't hate me!

I'm not claiming that I perfectly understand reality (who does?), but I am claiming that religious texts (and the people who wrote them) that unequivocally claim that there is a god and they know the will of god, are not rooted in reality. I don't think any religious people claim there is verifiable evidence that their beliefs are correct.

And if you're willing to adopt beliefs on faith alone, how do you decide which beliefs you require evidence for and which beliefs you don't require evidence for?

Someone• 11 years ago

IMO, a large part of it is the arrogant overestimation of the speed at which and extent of which foreign policy can change the world, in some cases augmented with negligence of a segment of the population that is poor and has fewer chances in life.

Ending it will take decades, as trust comes on foot but leaves on horseback.

kleer001• 11 years ago

The root? A thousand years of Christian-Muslim violence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Crusade

End it by replacing guns with first aid and tanks with schools. End it by replacing violence with empathy, by replacing fear with love.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swords_to_ploughshares

Ask HN: What is the root cause of Muslim violence and how do we end it?

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