Solid Electrolyte Paves the Way for Batteries with Almost Indefinite Lifetimes

http://scitechdaily.com/solid-electrolyte-paves-the-way-for-rechargeable-batteries-with-almost-indefinite-lifetimes/

by sprucely • 11 years ago

70 31 11 years ago

mtgx• 11 years ago

Multiple companies seem to be researching solid-state batteries right now, including Google and Apple. Some startups have even promised commercialization within a couple of years (but we know how those promises usually go). My guess is we'll start seeing them within 5-10 years, just around the time EVs will go mainstream.

Osmium• 11 years ago

Some startups have even promised commercialization within a couple of years (but we know how those promises usually go).

These are exceptionally difficult problems for a start-up to tackle (unless they've had a genuine 'eureka!' moment). It just requires too much up-front capital costs and intensive R&D. Even if you have the science right, scaling it up to production is a huge engineering challenge. Hope you're right about the 5-10 year estimate though.

bmir-alum-0074• 11 years ago

Srsly. It's one thing to build a prototype, another to bring costs down to profitability, uniform yield up and processes optimized.

WTTW: Such folks are better off calling McKinsey, they will send a 7'5" Brit ex-physicist whom speaks English and Mandarin and knows the secret handshakes of how .cn works.

Gibbon1• 11 years ago

That's true, there is low possibility that any particular line of research will pan out. Usually what happens is various groups each figure out bits of the puzzle and then everyone cross licenses the resulting solution.

I remember 10-15 years ago same rough groups were working very hard on cathodes for lithium batteries based on iron vs cobalt. Because cobalt is spensive and cobalt based cathodes suffer from thermal runaway. They tried all sorts of ways to make iron based cathodes that were conductive enough. Today lithium iron phosphate batteries are standard off the shelf consumer items.

Batteries are hard because material science is hard.

mnw21cam• 11 years ago

Article seems to be a little confused about what "power density" means, as opposed to "energy density". From the article: "Such batteries provide a 20 to 30 percent improvement in power density — with a corresponding increase in how long a battery of a given size could power a phone, a computer, or a car." No - a 20 to 30 percent greater power density means that you can drain the battery 20 to 30 percent faster by drawing more power. It doesn't mean that there is 20 to 30 percent more energy to draw out.

bmir-alum-0074• 11 years ago

Yeah, they're very different properties. Supercapacitors deliver a ton of power but hold a small fraction of the energy of a similar li-po battery.

JoeAltmaier3• 11 years ago

Further, it takes a doubling in capacity/current to be worth commercializing. Nobody wants to re-tool for 20%.

asb• 11 years ago

A significant increase in the lifetime (number of discharge cycles is compelling though). Plus I'm sure if the technology is commercialised, those with vested interests will be keen to lobby that solid-state batteries are required in electric vehicles due to the claimed safety benefits.

bmir-alum-0074• 11 years ago

This and supercapacitors blur the "lines" of technologies of batteries and capacitors. I hope they can boost the power greater than li-po.

Btw: Here's a capacitor lifetime calculator with equations.

http://www.illinoiscapacitor.com/tech-center/life-calculator...

Note: Electrolytic capacitors dry out, frequently rendering power supplies and other electronics unusable in a decade or three but they're easily replaced w/ soldiering.

outworlder• 11 years ago

Note: Electrolytic capacitors dry out, frequently rendering power supplies and other electronics unusable in a decade or three but they're easily replaced w/ soldiering.

When they don't take half of the circuitry with them when they go, of course. The capacitors in my last PSU failed so spectacularly that security personnel came to investigate, thinking there were gunshots.

bmir-alum-0074• 11 years ago

Caps blow by thermal runaway when they get too old (far out of spec) or are run out of spec.

Was repair attempted it or was it just thrown away? Things can look cooked, but they're often easily repairable. Far too often, most consumers are completely clueless, choosing instead to fix it by going to the store and filling the landfill needlessly because they don't care about wasting resources.

paulajohnson• 11 years ago

Reading the paper, they don't even have an actual material. This is a theoretical result about the kind of material that ought to work. Which is a step forwards, but not a breakthrough.

rm_-rf_slash• 11 years ago

Reminds me of when my dad and his colleagues researched a radical new technique to create solar sells at minuscule costs. In the end the physics proved the hypothesis would never work, which was like putting a sign at the start of a road labeled "DEAD END." No sense getting our hopes up until the science backs up the theory.

JosephRedfern• 11 years ago

Purely semantic... but how can a duration be "almost indefinite"?

onaclov2000• 11 years ago

I read the same thing, sooo i put em in, they might work for an hour they might work for 10 mins.... great

IanCal• 11 years ago

I'm not sure how you've interpreted the phrase "almost indefinite" as meaning "incredibly short lifespan" but it undoubtedly means they have a long but unknown lifespan.

nkrisc2• 11 years ago

I would take that to mean: a duration so long that for all practical applications and uses it might as well be indefinite.

But yes, it's either definite or it's indefinite, there's truly no "almost."

njharman2• 11 years ago

Indefinite doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.

Here's some synonyms to help you out; vague, ill-defined, unclear, imprecise, inexact, loose, general, nebulous, fuzzy, hazy, obscure, ambiguous, equivocal, indeterminate, unspecified, unlimited, unrestricted, undecided, undetermined, undefined, unfixed, unsettled, unknown, uncertain.

ridgeguy• 11 years ago

For anyone interested in this topic, a company that seems fairly far along in developing a commercial solid electrolyte lithium battery is Sakti3. Of the higher-performance battery developers that I follow, they seem closest to commercial sales.

http://sakti3.com

rebootthesystem• 11 years ago

Well, what we need to spark a revolution on many fronts is simple:

    Half the volume
    Twice the energy

We had something like that happen when going from NiCd to LiPo chemistry. On one of my high performance gliders I went from a massive, heavy 27 cell NiCd pack to a 6 cell LiPo pack that's easily half the volume and probably half the weight, if not less. And the LiPo pack can easily deliver 200 "anytime/anywhere" Amps. Yes, the thing goes up vertically like a rocket. Motor only runs for 10 seconds, if that.

I'm not a chemist but I think the only way to achieve this half/double evolutionary step is with chemistry, not structure (as in, making layers smaller). Lithium is nasty stuff. Part of me hopes we can bring something like carbon nanotube-based supercapacitors to this level of performance and radically change electrical energy storage without going to nasty chemistry. It would almost feel "zen" to use carbon for efficient energy storage.

Yes, there's a bit of sarcasm there in calling it "simple", because it isn't at all.

frankus• 11 years ago

I suspect the only chemistries that will support that kind of improvement are air-breathing cells (vanadium boride-air has a specific energy that narrowly beats gasoline).

Unfortunately they can't be recharged in-situ, so they probably will be limited to applications where that kind of energy density is really necessary (e.g. airliners).

ams6110• 11 years ago

Yet another fantastic battery technology claim that you'll probably never hear about again.

chiph• 11 years ago

The focus seems to be on handheld devices (phones, tablets, etc). But what if they went big to start, looking at traditional deep-cycle applications. Wet-cell batteries (like on golf carts) need regular topping-up with distilled water. AGM batteries remove that requirement and can be discharged deeper without damage, but still have liquid electrolyte in them. RV owners are now experimenting with LiFePo chemistry batteries, but the price is objectionable. I think there's a potential sweet-spot in there.

AstroJetson• 11 years ago

Yes, boat and RV owners would love deep discharge battery packs that have longer lives. Wet-cell is about a 48 month life, the AGM's a little better. A full set replacement for a large RV is about $2K, so getting another year or two is a big deal.

Solid Electrolyte Paves the Way for Batteries with Almost Indefinite Lifetimes

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